You are going to LOVE today’s conversation! I sat down with journalist-turned-copywriter Nicola Moors for a fascinating and insightful chat about all things copy and launching.
We dig into how copywriting is a DATA driven process (which surprised me because I think of writing as a creative thing).
Writing copy that converts was one of the most intimidating tasks in my business when I started marketing digital programs and I immediately wanted to outsource… maybe that’s you too?
If so, you might be surprised by Nicola’s recommendation where she helps coaches and course creators have profitable launches fuelled by data and research. Her data-approach to messaging and funnels has won her clients above-industry-average results.
Be sure not to miss this one – it's full of practical tips and really good gems that will truly shift your perspective.
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Hey, friend, welcome back to another episode. Today, we are in for such a good conversation. I have a guest on and we're talking all things copywriting in your launches, and you're gonna is gonna love this one because it's full of juicy nuggets and some pretty hilarious moments. But before we dive into today's episode, let's just do a quick touch base here. I cannot believe we are almost halfway through the year. I know, it's just one of those things that I roll my eyes when everyone says like happy first of the month or like happy quarter. I mean, time goes on. We all know that. But I just want to do a quick check in and see how you're doing. How are you doing on those goals that you have for this year? How are you making progress?
I know if you're listening to this show, I know stepping into a bigger spotlight was one of the things that you were working on this year, whatever that looks like for you, whether that's showing up more on social media, maybe showing your face more, maybe it's getting out there on podcast, maybe it's starting to do lives, maybe you're chasing the spotlight of wanting to step in and become a keynote speaker, whatever that looks like for you. This is your coach giving you some tough love and saying how you're doing on that goal? We are almost halfway through the year and this would be a good time for you to check in. Evaluate how you're doing on that, not from the place where I want you to beat down on yourself and say, I'm not as far as I want. Can I just give you a reality check like all of us are always oh, we're not as far along as we want. But that's the thing about setting big scary goals is you're probably not going to stay on track but you got to keep pushing those goals and more importantly, you have to keep checking in so that you can get back in sync and start making progress.
So this is just from the heart little invitation for you, if you are off track from your goals this year, maybe give yourself permission to evaluate, are they still important?And if speaking on stages is one of those things that you're still interested in, this is a good time to snap back in and start thinking about what can I do to make progress? Now I'm just gonna give you a little preview of what's to come. I've had a lot of people reaching out to me asking about when the next round of Speak up to Level Up is going to be opening? What's happening there? As you may or may not have known, I shared this on the show a few months back, but we used to have the program on ongoing enrollment. By the way, if you're new around here, Speak up to Level up is my signature group coaching program where I help online entrepreneurs craft and deliver a magnetic signature talk that attracts clients so that they can show up not only on stages, as a guest speaker, as a keynote speaker, but also speak confidently around their messaging main points wherever they show up with that's on live video, whether that's on social media, whether that's on their own podcast for guest podcasts, whatever that looks like. They know that their message is going to land and it's going to magnetically attract their ideal clients, so that's the jam.
That program has been out for three years. I talk about it all the time, what we're supposed to do as business owners, y'all talk about your stuff, but give you some exciting updates, more to come in the next few weeks. But y'all we have a very, very special announcement coming up about that program in the next few weeks. And I know I hate it when people are like I have a surprise and they don't share it yet, but I can't quite share all the details yet, but just to give you a little tickler teaser. We have completely revamped the program and we are launching a absolutely new program this fall. Yes, you heard that correct. We have a brand new program coming out this fall, so we are very excited about it. Who is we? What am I referencing? Oh, you just got off to wait for that. But I just, I can't not talk about it anymore. We've been working on behind the scenes now for a couple months, and I'm ready to start talking about it here real real soon.
So if you have been thinking, Heather, I want to know more about your program. Heather, I really want to get started. I want you to put like, grab a glass and put your ear on the door. Did you ever do that to hear through walls? I don't know that was the metaphor that came into my mind right now. Keep your ear out, keep your ear out, make sure that you are on my email list so you can be the first to know. Speak up to Level up members, you will be finding out all the details here within the next couple of weeks. Don't worry, you are all in for all of it but we have some exciting stuff coming. But the reason why I bring this up is I want you to start thinking now what your goals are for the next six months? And if you are one of the people, who I know there's many of you that are absolutely terrified and you are hiding behind your laptop right now, let this be the season where you start getting a little more comfortable using your voice maybe that's just in writing at first, but we're going to work on getting your voice and getting out in front of people. But I mean, this would not be a podcast about speaking if I didn't remind you what your goals are and get you going with it, so thanks for coming to my TED talk here on the opening today. I just felt like somebody needed to hear that, so you're welcome. It's time for you to step out and do some bigger things, and we have some really exciting things coming up, some free things coming up over the next few months that will help you with that so stay tuned.
Now into today's episode, my guest today, Nicola Moors, she is an incredible conversion copywriter. She focuses on full launch strategy and copy supporting her clients. So one of the things that I really liked about her and one of the big reasons I had her on the show, number one, she was highly recommended to me by a few close personal friends in the online business space. Nicola has a very strategic way in which she approaches business. A lot of times we think about copywriting as a very creative thing, but there's actually a science behind it. And in this interview, I interviewed her a few weeks ago and so I'm really excited this is now finally coming out. We geeked out about the scientific, mathematic side of business, and how so many business owners kind of shy away from that because they don't understand what their numbers mean. So we lean into that and talk about how we translate late those numbers into more of the creative stuff with copywriting. So we get in on that, but she's a very data driven copywriter, which I think that approach to messaging is really really important and her funnels have won her clients super high above industry averages like some of our clients increasing 68% increase in their sales page conversions. Some of her clients have a 13% conversion rate on warm and cold traffic for their sales page which are I mean, ridiculously high. She also has a launch emails from of her clients are up towards of 85.4% open rates which again is crazy high so she's got the stats to prove it.
She's appeared on high profile podcasts and stages like the Copywriter Club Podcast, Copy Hackers, Jordan Gil's Done in a Day virtual conference as speaker. She knows what she's talking about. And this was not only a fun conversation, there are just so many gems in it that you're going to love. And one of my favorite questions that I asked her in the interview, I wanted to know what's the thing about hiring a copywriter? Does everyone actually need one because there's kind of this belief in the online space, that if you want your emails and your sales page to convert, you really need to have a copywriter because let's be honest, most likely, you and I are not, I mean, we're not copywriters. I mean, maybe you're a copywriter listening to this and thank goodness for you. But the question is, do we all need it?
And I know early on in my business, I hired a copywriter. I know many business owners didn't. I've done launches without them. We wanted to have the real question and you'll be surprised by her answer on that, so you're in for a real treat today. You're going to love Nicola. She was so generous with her time. We had the call. She's halfway around the world. It was nighttime for her so I'm just so grateful for her time on this. You're going to love her. And be sure to give her some love at this interview. Take a screenshot of this epishowd, episode. No, I'm gonna cut that. We're just gonna keep that on it and we're gonna call it an epishowd today because it's like a show and an episode. Get it? We kind of blended those. But take a screenshot wherever it is you're listening today and give us some love on Instagram. You can tag me @theheathersager and you can tag Nicola @nicolamoors, M, O, O, R, S. You'll also see the little link to that in the show notes but give her some love.
Y'all this show here, we are a tiny but mighty fierce show. I am super proud of our downloads in the progress we have grown as a community. The show right now is ranking in the top 2% of podcasts around the world which is freaking huge. However, you and I both know that we all are pretty choosy on where we spend our podcast listening time. I think I'm not alone here when I say the pandemic changed my listening habits. So many people are driving less frequently these days. And I don't know about you but podcasting was typically a pastime that was done in the car. And I believe that and maybe this is just my interpretation that more people are being choosier with who they let into their earbuds, for good reason, right? We want to make sure that we're not consuming all this other information. But all this to say, when you're recommended a podcast by a friend, you're far more likely to listen.
So this is my ask of you, if you found value on the show, if you love to tune in each week, if you enjoy my weird quirky side tangents, my dynamic voice, y'all tell me that you love and if you love my quirky stories, but most importantly, the content that we bring to the show to help you step into the role of a more magnetic business owner to attract your clients in your business, would you please, please, please, share this podcast with someone who would benefit with this episode, the show in general, another episode, screenshot it, share it with your social media but even more, would you actually talk about it, tell people about it. It would mean the world to me. We're rounding out almost three years on this show, close to 160 episodes. I'm just so grateful for you for coming back each and every week. And I'm very, very grateful for you sharing this with those that you think would find benefit from it. Okay, that's my little mini ask of you today, so let's dive into the show. I want to introduce you to my friend, my new friend, Nicola Moors.
All right, friends and welcome back to another episode. I am thrilled for today's interview. Nicola, welcome officially to my show.
Nicola Moors 12:51
Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here you can see by the massive smile on my face.
Heather Sager 12:57
We can hear it in the voice for those of you listening today, we're gonna have a fun conversation. We were just chit chatting before. Before we turned on the show. I was giggling that when you submitted the information for the show, we always ask people, What do you want to talk about? What are you passionate about? What do you think the audience would like to hear? And I always ask the question, like, what's the one thing that you wish people asked you? And I told her I'm like, we're gonna make the episode like start with that today. So just that's your little juicy cliffhanger. We're gonna get to that in a moment. But Nicola, why don't you share a little bit about yourself, and specifically what you do in your business?
Nicola Moors 13:31
Yeah, sure. So I am a copywriter. I focus on funnels and launches. And really my superpower is numbers. I love talking about money. I love looking at numbers. And so when it comes to my clients launches, I'm not just writing the copy, strategizing, doing all the messaging, I'm actually going in and checking metrics, seeing where the sort of bottlenecks in the funnel are, where are we losing people? And I think that's something that a lot of copywriters don't do, they just focus on the words, but I think to have a really, you know, high converting powerful funnel or launch, if you don't know what your numbers are, then, you know, we don't know what's working. And so whenever I start all of my projects, I start with a launch debrief or funnel debrief to see what the numbers are actually saying. Because if I don't know those numbers before I start strategizing or writing then I'm just guessing I get paid a lot of money to not guess. That's why I like to look at the numbers first. Everything I do is based off data and based off research from the audience, or the author as well.
Heather Sager 14:34
Yeah, okay. I love that. You said I get paid a lot of money to not guess. It's so great. You know, it's interesting, I'm curious to hear. It's when we think about writing any form of writing, copywriting, conversion, writing content, writing, any kind of it. It's usually a creative practice. And so you don't typically hear people who say like, I'm a writer, but then also, on the other hand, say I love numbers. So I'm just curious, was that always something that you were attracted to? Was that more analytical side? Or were you more attracted to the creative writing side? And I'm just now curious around your background of how you put those two things together?
Nicola Moors 15:11
This is an interesting question because going back to school, I always got better grades in Maths and I did English I was top set for both I got A's for English, but I was getting a stars for maths, which people I was really weird, my brother. He's like a maths genius. I'm not that far. But I was always better at maths and I actually wanted to be a lawyer when I was in my teens. You know, I'd read all the John Grisham novels, I was obsessed with like a thriller show, I was caught. I was just Judy Perry Mason, if you remember that show, my mum used to watch it. And so I was like, I'm going to be a lawyer. And I was so good at being analytical. And I also got really good grades of history because of the analytical side. But there was also a part of me in my spare time, I would write stories, the first story I ever wrote, and I never actually finished it. I remember the the starting seems like a shipwreck off an island, you know, really a real cliffhanger. And then I never finished it. So I don't know how it ends.
But I've always had like, sort of a both kind of sight, which I think is a little bit odd. But when I applied for university, I'd always want wanted to be a lawyer. And I had a freakout, literally the week before my university deadline before we did the application process. And I'm like, crap, I don't want to be a lawyer anymore. And my dad sat me down and said, okay, what do you like to do? And at that time, I'd been working at my local newspaper as like a youth reporter. They had like a youth program and I would go in once a month and I would write articles and they would get published in the paper. And I said, I love writing, I love writing new stories so I'll do journalism at university and so that's what I did at university. I study journalism. Then when I graduated in 2014, I worked as a journalist for six years. So I wrote real life features for the national magazines and newspapers. So actually, what I wrote was more first person stories like talking to real people about their events. And, you know, finding the hook and it’s so huge crossover to copywriting.
And then while I was working as a journalist, Mark, one of my colleagues at the time was making extra money as a copywriter. And I was like, I could do that. Not realizing, obviously, the intense training that can go into it. And that's really how I crossed over into the dark side of copywriting. But I've always had that sort of both side of things. But I think the number side of it was almost not pushed down. I've always liked talking about money, but I feel like as a woman, we're told, you know, when you talk about money, you're seeing a certain way. And so I sort of like pushed that side down and didn't really, you know, do it, I guess.
And then last year, I was realizing that when I was doing these projects and I was doing the debriefs first. I was finding out these amazing insights that were actually making the launches work better when I was coming in and like doing the copy of them. And so I was like, this needs to be my thing. Like, I need to do this more and talk about this because people are too scared of numbers, when actually numbers are facts, like numbers are evidence of what's going on in your business, right or wrong. And so people need to know about them. And yeah, so that's really how it ends up here.
But in terms of like the creative process of writing, I find that whenever I'm doing a launch, the writing is actually the smallest part for me. I spend so much time on the debrief and the research, you know, figuring out what the positioning is, the messaging, and making sure that all resonates with the audience and it's all connected, then I spend a lot of time optimizing the offer, the strategy for the launch. And so by the time you've done all the research, you pretty much have most of your copy written. I know people often get afraid of copywriting and see it as this huge thing but if you can listen to your audience and you're already a good copywriter, I don't want to say that copywriting is copy and paste but it is a little bit. Obviously, there's a lot more that goes into it than that. But yeah, if you can listen to your audience, then it will really help, you know, dial in that message, and I know you talk about this a lot as well.
Heather Sager 19:11
It's so fascinating hearing how, I don't know you think about this idea of around how the skill sets of our past really are amplified when you find the thing that you're really, really good at. I didn't know you were in journalism. So that's kind of a cool, kind of a cool twist. I also wanted to be a lawyer for a hot minute, that did not go anywhere, and similar to you I was way better at Math. I actually in college switched from getting a Bachelor of Arts degree to a Bachelor of Science degree because I was way better at Math and Science, which is kind of hilarious too.
So we have a shared love of numbers in business that always surprises people. I'm curious when you talk about how you lead with launch debriefs and you lead with numbers for your clients, when you start talking to a client or on a project, I would imagine most business owners, they know numbers, right, but they think copywriting as like, just give me the copy piece. Are most business owners surprised when you get so focused on the data and numbers when you first start working together or are they, who you're working with kind of expecting that?
Nicola Moors 20:18
I think probably a bit of both. I mean, I talk about the numbers a lot in my messaging and my positioning, so I don't think it comes as a surprise to them. But when I whack out my spreadsheets on a sales call that probably like whoa, she was really good because I can explain exactly why I'm doing you know, I'm not adding it in just to, you know, charge you more. I'm doing it for a reason, like it will actually help you in the long run. Because like I said before, if I don't know what's already working in the funnel, then I'm just guessing. But ya know, I think I think probably my level of love for it surprises them, but I don't think the actual topic surprises them.
Heather Sager 20:58
Yeah. Okay, I'm now I'm very curious. I'm gonna ask you to show me your spreadsheet later. Let's talk about a little bit what's on that. So I know we talked about numbers, you mentioned that there are really important metrics that we need to be looking at when we're thinking about launching digital products. And I would imagine it transcends whether or not it's an ongoing evergreen product, which means it's always open for enrollment, or if someone's launching something new in some kind of live fashion, whatever that looks like. What are some of the numbers and metrics that we really need to be paying attention to?
Nicola Moors 21:31
So I would say if you've got a membership, for example, that the real key metric there is retention. And I think that's something a lot of people don't look at they, I mean, let's say you have a membership, a lot of people will either have it, or you can either have it on evergreen, or you can live launch. A lot of people do a mixture of both ways. They’re evergreen most of the time and then they'll do a live launch twice a year, for example. Now, if that live launch makes you know, $20,000, great. But if people are dropping off out of the membership after a few months, then you don't have a marketing problem, you have a customer service problem because there's a reason people aren't staying over. They're not getting what they need from you, or maybe the onboarding needs changing, so I think that's a real key metric.
Other things like lifetime value of customer, I think this one, I was actually doing some reading about this, and a lot of people don't, a lot of businesses don't actually look at this. Lifetime value is basically the customer value times average customer lifespan. So again, going back to the membership, it'd be the average. So if the membership was $97 a month, it would be that value per customer and then times the number of months that they would be in the membership, that would be the lifetime value. And a lot of people don't look at that. I was actually reading a study and I can't think where it was. But they found that a 5% increase in retention rate so based on the membership. It actually rises profit between 25 to 95%. So it just shows that when you look at your current customers, it can have a huge increase in revenue.
I would say like other metrics to look at are average cost per sale or per acquisition. A lot of people will look at that if you have paid marketing, but average cost per sale, you will look at your expenses divided by the number of sales. And the key of that really is if you're spending too much acquiring new customers, then you need to know that because i if you're making sales, for example, on $1,000 course, but it's costing you whatever amount to acquire that sale, then maybe there needs to be another way that you can acquire that person, whether it's using organic traffic instead of pay traffic, for example, so there's sort of like the key areas. And I think when you know those numbers, it's almost like a puzzle of okay, what is this number telling me? Like I said, going back to retention, if the retention isn't that high, then you have a customer service problem. I just love talking about this stuff.
Heather Sager 24:02
It's good. Somebody's excited about it, right? Navigate it when you're talking with a business owner and maybe they don't have those numbers, either they haven't been tracking or let's say they have a newer program, I can think of probably a variety of situations where somebody is going, I don't know what those numbers are, or I don't even know that I could calculate that. How would you approach it with someone so they can make data informed decisions, even if they might not have it readily available?
Nicola Moors 24:32
Got it. So I would look at a previous launch, for example, and say, Okay, how much did you spend on contractors on your tech, whatever expenses were associated with that launch? And I presume most business owners would know that. And then compare that to the money that you made from the launch? I think a big thing that you see in the online business world. I'm sure you've noticed this as well. It's when people talk about launches, they talk about the revenue. They don't talk about the profit or the profit margin that they actually had. So that's like quite a simple way of working out your profit margin from the launch. If you don't have the numbers like lifetime customer value or retention rate, for example, just looking at those expenses associated directly with it gives you a much better indication, because making a six figure launch is amazing. And you know, that shouldn't be put down at all, it's a great achievement. But if you spent 90 grand to get that on copywriter, Facebook ads, you know, Kajabi, whatever the tech is, whatever, then actually that launch might not be as successful as you first thought that it was, and that's why knowing these numbers is really empowering is powerful to know where you actually started in your business.
Heather Sager 25:40
I think it's really, really important to think about that and understand the collective too. I would imagine a lot of times with copywriters, I look at this in my business, when I invest in a copywriter for a launch, I'm not just investing for that one launch, I'm thinking about the lifetime value of the copy. So I'm thinking of okay, I might be taking not as much profit for this launch. But if we can repurpose the copy into an evergreen funnel or into the next live launch with subtle tweaks, right, the profit would expand, so talk a little bit about that. I'm imagining that some of the things that, one of the things people can consider if they're considering hiring a copywriter or looking at copy from that realm, when we think about expenses, is that something that you talk with clients around?
Nicola Moors 26:24
That's interesting, you know, probably not enough, actually, and I think
Heather Sager 26:28
Add that to your sales kit there, girl.
Nicola Moors 26:30
I need to make some notes. I think a few times when I have mentioned it, I almost feel as if people don't actually consider it, you know, it's almost like they forget, actually, we can use a sales page for the next, if we launch twice a year. We can keep using this and they're just so focused on on like, this is going to cost me X now and they are so focused on that number right now, instead of seeing that sort of lifetime value. But yeah, maybe I should talk about that more. That's a very good tip. Well, thanks.
Heather Sager 26:59
Note that. That's a core part of my messaging. Y'all should know this by now. If we talked about with me, right? If people hire me for a speaking coach, they're not hiring me for their one keynote on a stage. And in fact, we have that conversation if that's what they're looking for. I'm not the right coach because I'm way too expensive for one talk. However, if they want to do talks over and over and over again and learn how to monetize them and use speaking as a marketing tool, I'm the girl because the one time investment is going to pay off in spades because they're going to know how to consistently talk about their message. But I honestly think the same thing is true for copy, might be a heavier investment upfront. However, the long term use of that could be really, really awesome. But this brings up the important question that we were chatting about before we started. And this idea that it can sound really sexy to say, let me hire Nicola or another copywriter to come in and frickin help me get this launch going because we know it is a lot of copy. And it can be really intimidating for someone who doesn't understand what commercial copy is or even we start adding up all of the volume of copy needed to successfully launch some kind of digital product or program. Can you talk a little bit about the idea that actually they might not need to hire a copywriter?
Nicola Moors 28:10
Yeah, so this came to me because I often get approached by business owners who've worked on a launch before with another copywriter. And they're telling me the launch didn't go as I wanted to the copy didn't convert, please, can I hire you to rewrite the sales page, and I've looked at the sales page or whatever it is. And it's actually been converting it 5%, which is a really good conversion rate for sales page. And I think the reason when launches go to itself is a lot of people tend to blame the copywriter or the copy when there's actually so many factors that go into a launch to make it successful. And so going back to working with these clients now, when the launch doesn't convert, as it converts is hope, but you don't get the launch goals that you wanted. Now, there's two lessons here. The first one, if you do a launch debrief after every single launch, you will know which parts of your funnel, which assets, which copy assets, whether it's the emails, opt in page, whatever it is, is converting. So that's when you do a launch debrief. Firstly, you know all of that information. Now, if you don't do that, you won't know that and so when it doesn't go as you want it to, you like crap, I need to like get this sales page rewritten.
Another thing here to consider is when launches don't go as planned, and again, the copy is converting but you're not making the money that you wanted, the case is usually the fact that there's no lead strategy. Now I can come in and I can write the best converting copy in the world that you know resonates with the audience and messaging is on point, everything's perfect but if people can't see that page or they don't see it, then how are they going to buy? And so there's two lessons here, one, is always do a launch debrief and two, have a lead strategy. And you don't always need a copywriter to come in and, you know, pay them 1000s of dollars to rewrite something that's actually working, when often the funnel just needs a few tweaks to really like, you know, make it skyrocket and make you loads of money.
I was working on a feat and a launch a few months ago. And with my launches, I offer my clients one to one support during the launch because they are stressful. And so I'm there in hand, any last minute copy tweaks, and there are my client was like, Nic, the launch isn't going as I wanted it to. It's mid launch, they weren't getting enough sales. And I was like, okay, let's I'll go and I'll check the metrics, and I always check the metrics during the launch. I'm type A, so I think there's a little bit of me being a type A as well. Just wanting to make sure everything's going okay, so I checked the metrics. I think we were literally halfway through the launch.
Now, during halfway through a launch sales usually slumped anyway, but I checked the metrics. The emails were converting, or sorry, the open rates and click rates were about what I'd expect to see, and the sales page was converting at 7%. And the problem was that there wasn't enough eyeballs on the page. So I went back to my client and said, look, everything's working, as I'd expect. But we need to get more eyeballs on the page. Is it something we can do with Facebook ads? Can you talk about it on Instagram more, in your Facebook groups? So there's lots of reasons why a launch doesn't work. And you don't always need to pay 1000s of dollars or pounds or whatever, to a copywriter. So do a launch debrief first and I know that they can feel quite scary because I get it numbers can feel scary to people but I cannot stress the importance of knowing your numbers.
Heather Sager 28:15
I will continue to stress out that for you because it is so void of data, right? We were all human. We all default to how we're feeling about something and our perspective in that moment around, Oh, it's not working. You know, what I have reminded as you're talking about this idea that business owners want to look at, like, oh, how do I fix a copy? How do I fix a sale page like it's not working? I'm kind of reminded around the idea that when we think about experts sharing their content, I work with this a lot in my business, people have really, really incredible expertise to share. It's just not being packaged or talked about in a way that people pay attention. It doesn't matter how damn good your expertise is or what you have to share, if you can't get people to pay attention, it really doesn't matter.
It's like, if you do an incredible training in a Facebook Live, but the first five minutes are filled with like hems and haws and like waiting for people to get on or address Suzy in the chat like, nobody's gonna watch the replay later because you've made the barrier to like, get to the juicy stuff. You made it really sucky experience for people. So I think about this, when you were talking about copy, it doesn't matter how good your promo emails are, or your sales page, or any of those things, getting eyes on it. I think we have to be real, like a lot here, business owner listening to the show, that getting eyeballs on you and your business. That is the game, that is the challenge. And what I see so often with business owners is they want to deflect that piece and they think hiring out like a copywriter is gonna solve that problem. But as you just pointed out, tough love y'all, like that's not going to solve the problem. You still have to figure out how to get eyes on your business. Luckily, we help you all with that on the show quite a bit. So we'll link to some of our favorite episodes around how to do that organically.
But let's talk about, let's say the issue is the sales page. I want to go there for a moment. I know you have this like proud, your sales page converts like gangbusters, right? That was one of the notes I saw on here. So what is it about your sales page specifically or the sales pages that you create, why do they convert so freakin well?
Nicola Moors 31:44
So this goes back to my process with really looking at the whole funnel like holistically. So when I'm working, even if it's only I say only, even though it's a main piece of asset and a launch, but when it even I'm just working on a sales page, and I'm not doing the whole launch, I still do my entire process in terms of all of the research. So when I do my launch debriefs, I'm not just looking at that full sales funnel for the past launch. I also look at all of the other copy assets that you have. So your welcome sequence, your opt ins, because we want to create a flow from that very first opt in as soon as somebody gets eyes in your business. There has to be like a connection. So whatever you're selling at the end has to connect to whatever the opt in they see first unless you've made like a really strong connection as to why they now need this new offer or this different topic for example. So it's looking at not just the sales funnel, but welcome sequence, your blog posts, how are they converting? You know which content is getting the most eyeballs on it because that suggests that that's what they're looking, your audience is looking for from you. So it's really starts with the funnel then we'll going into the audience.
Okay, which how are we getting people to the sales page? Are we using Facebook ads? If we are, what's their targeting on the Facebook ads? Is that actually who we're targeting? Is that, are we going in the correct way? Once we've done that, is looking at post launch surveys. I'm a huge fan of surveys. And I think everybody should bake them into their businesses. It’s so easy to automate. And I think having a survey at every single touch point in your business, whether it's the thank you page after an opt in, you know, post launch with people who bought your product, even in survey people on your list who didn't buy. So I look at all of that and I'm like, okay, what are the objections that people have? I go really deep, I look at the webinar comments, because often, when you're teaching something, people will be in the comments either saying this really resonates or they'll be asking questions. And quite often, you'll find that there's an information gap. So you're not explaining something enough, or they don't know why they need it in their life and that might be the messaging that we need up to the sales page. So I also look at DMs that people get during the launch. Again, if people are asking questions, that means either the information isn't on the page, or it's not easy enough for them to see.
The next point is looking at the offers. So once we've got the audience and we know the funnel, how the funnels working, we look at the offer, okay? Is this optimized enough? Does this positioning meet the audience where they are and actually solve the problem that they actually need solving, because we all have problems, but we're not all motivated enough to want to solve every single one of our problems. So the problem that you solve for your audience, they've got to have some sort of motivation to want to solve it, so I'm looking at that. If they have, I don't know, let's say an objection of money. That's a classic one that comes up. Can we offer payment plans? Can we compare the cost of this product to the cost of doing nothing, for example? Can we do a demo on the sales page to show actually what they're going to get? Demos and videos in sales page actually really increase the conversions. I think if people having that almost like over the shoulder view that increases them. Again, I'm looking at leads where the traffic coming from.
And then finally, it's looking at the copy again, so making sure that positioning is on the page. I tweak the first thing you should always tweak. I mean, unless like the page is really not converting, then I'd probably just say scrap it and just rewrite the whole thing again. But if it's converting maybe 2-3%, I would look at changing that headline section first, anything above the fold? How can we optimize this to meet the audience where they're at? And oftentimes, when they're coming from an email, if you match that message that they've just seen on that email to the sales page is basically meeting their expectations. So they, people want to see what they want to see and that's what they would expect to see the sales pages like the message matching up. So I'd say that's really like the main sort of overview of the process for writing high converting sales page. I think there's a lot that goes on before this is like behind the scenes before I even write the copy, making sure that everything's matching up. You know, optimizing the offer and doing the research and really understanding the audience.
Heather Sager 38:15
I wrote down a couple things as you were talking. I want to emphasize what you said, because these were really, really good gems, all that was good gems. I highly recommend, hit that like 30 second back button and listen to that again. But here are the couple that stood out to me. You said, you'd like to scroll through the webinar comments to see when people are like, oh, my gosh, like that was, and you specifically said to find out what's resonating. I want to call attention to this, y'all. You know, we talk a lot about webinars here. Side note, we'll link in the show, we had a three part series around how to really lead more effective webinars that don't feel schmucky back in the fall, so we'll link to that series. But I think what an overlooked thing, people do not look at the chat box window after they're done with any kind of live training and this is like a secret ninja like move. This is so, so good. Because what I find so often is when people are speaking their audience, they get into this zone where they love it, but they kind of like forget about the chat box and knowing the exact things that you say that get people to be like preach or yes, or the mind blown emoji. You got to repeat that, like say more of that and then what you're saying is take that and really lean into that on the messaging or sales page. So that like that that brilliant little gem right there I think is so powerful. Anyone listening to show I know you're already out there, you're working on showing up more on your Instagram Stories, your lives, you're speaking on stages, doing podcasts, any of those things. pay attention to those aha moments and capture them, like what a gem. Ad then the second thing you said is the same thing with DMs, like paying attention to what people are asking in the DMs. I think it's so easy for people to skip over the basic questions or worse I hear business owners I see them complain about people asking super basic questions. And I'm like Oh my gosh, what a brilliant thing like, take those questions and do something with it more when an opportunity to have a more, a bigger conversation. So I know that was super just brilliant, kudos to you, like I even forget about those things. So yes, I wanted to highlight those. You also talked about the headlines. Can we talk about that a little bit more? I love your idea around matching it to the messaging that's coming in. But I do find, and maybe this is a selfish thing for me, writing headlines makes my brain go all clunky, because as you can tell now here from this latest rant, I am not a short winded talker and I am terrible at like punchy one liners. They just randomly fall out of my mouth but I could never figure out what I said. How do you help people, and I know you write them for people, but how can you, like how do we help someone come up with those freakin headlines because I don't know why, but that is the hardest thing for me to come up with.
Nicola Moors 40:55
It's the hardest thing for me. And I think actually, this line is the hardest thing on the page to write because it's the first thing your audience sees. if T hey don't like it, they’re clicking off. There's a stat, I think it's like you have eight seconds to grab someone's attention. So that headline is, rubbish, if they're clicking off the page and you're not gonna see.
Heather Sager 41:12
I'm glad to hear you though, say that that's the hardest thing for you too because that makes me feel like okay, I'm maybe, maybe I can learn how to do it.
Nicola Moors 41:20
I'll give you a few of my tricks. So I actually always write the headline first. So I actually start at the bottom of the page. FAQs are the easiest thing to write because your audience are asking you questions that goes in the FAQ so you're gonna copy and paste from your DMs or from the webinar, put it on the sales page. And so those are a big chunk of your sales page written and that's all I always do is like
Heather Sager 41:42
You said, you alwalys write the headlines first. Do you mean that you always read it last?
Nicola Moors 41:46
I'm sorry, I just read the headlines first, FAQ section. Hang on headlines last, FAQ section first.
Heather Sager 41:53
That's what I thought I was like, hold on, you write it first because that's like, that's like, wow.
Nicola Moors 41:59
Quite clearly, I'm not having enough caffeine today. Headlines, definitely last. So I find that once I've got the rest of the page down, I kind of have like an inkling of what I'm going to put in the headline. But for the headline, once you know your audience, if you know your audience well enough, you know, their top three pain points, you know, their top three goals. And it's just a case of grabbing those and mixing them up and just trying different variations. So I always want to try and write as many headline options as I can. And the first one that I write is never the one that I go with. And usually, so when I'm doing research on the audience, I will open like a Google Doc or a spreadsheet, copy and paste exact paragraphs, comments from the audience into the sales page. And often you will get headline ideas from your audience and just copy and paste, tweak them and just keep riffing off them. So I find that with headlines, I very rarely write them just myself, it's always a bit of a copy and paste and tweak job from the audience. And I just keep reading my notes and like exactly what the audience has said, so I'll go through the interview transcripts as well, because I was doing interviews as well as the surveys. And really just like, okay, this is what they're talking about. This is what they keep mentioning, so I need to put this in the headline. And I think once you know the pain point, you know what words and what language the audience is using to describe that pain point, you've got half the headline there. Now it's just a case of formatting it in like a really succinct way. And I like to do it start, if you're, I like to write it how to and then fill in the blank, like how to solve x pain point in a really quick way. And then you get with the How to, so you always start with a really strong verb like ditch, demolish, skyrocket. They're the three that came into my head just now. And so that's how I would do it. So I think if you start long, and then you can just come sit down.
Heather Sager 44:05
I'm actually writing that down but that's going to be a line on that. I love that simple trick of removing the just the how to from that instantly. What a brilliant move there. Okay, coming back to this idea of people leveraging a copywriter, whether it's for a live launch or an evergreen launch, what are some things that business owners should really be asking themselves or considering if they're trying to determine whether or not they should do their copy in house ie., themselves or hiring a copywriter? Do you have any guidance for business owners listening in on whether or not they should be considering?
Nicola Moors 44:40
Sure. So I think if you've launched a few times, your offer, I think first of all, make sure your offer is selling. If your offer is selling then having a copywriter come in and write copy for that offer is never going to work because the offer isn't working in the first place. So you have to make sure that your offer is selling. I don't think it matters if you have, you know, I don't think your list size matters or anything like that as long as you have a really good offer. That's number one. It helps if you know your audience and d even better if you have metrics that you can pass on to the copywriter. And don't be, I guess shocked or surprised if they ask you for that. I think in terms of looking at copywriters make sure that if you don't have the research yourself, they will probably want to do their own. Anyway, but make sure they actually have a process to do that because if a copywriter is coming, and they don't have a research process, that means that they’re just writing the copy, you know, they're pulling it from their ass and nobody wants to launch based on that, so make sure they have a research process. But I think really, as long as you have, I guess, a solid offer, and I think it helps to have, but it’s not necessary is to have that sort of authority in your field so people see you as like the expert and they want to learn from you. I think if you have both of those, it will make it a lot easier. You know, number one, justifying hiring a copywriter because you're more likely to get results. Remember, it's not just the copy, it's everything that goes into a launch as well. And unfortunately, authority is part of that. So I'd say they're the top few things. I don't know if you want to like chat about any of that.
Heather Sager 46:19
Oh, that's beautiful. I love, I love that. Okay, I actually want to pivot for a second talk about something totally different that you didn't know I was going to ask you about. But you're here on a podcast, you're using your voice, which is different than writing words. One of the things we talk about, well, not ne of the things, the main thing we talk about on the show is this idea of using your voice as becoming the the ambassador for your brand, using your voice as an asset. How has that transform your role as a copywriter in how you run your business like just tell us a little bit about how you leverage speaking in your business?
Nicola Moors 46:50
So I actually want to go back a little bit back when I was a journalist. The stories that I wrote for the newspapers and magazines were actually first person accounts of everyday women, the magazines were for women. So hence the audience for women and I mostly worked with women. Now I've mostly worked on crime stories of these women had actually gone through really horrific experiences, and had seen their attacker or whoever, you know, jailed or they've gotten some sort of justice. We couldn't do it if they hadn't gotten justice because of legal ramifications. Now, what I thought was incredible was that these women who had gone through these most horrific events that you can imagine, were speaking out in a national publication using their voice, because they were so passionate about helping others and making sure that other women knew they weren't alone, and that they could get justice to and that there's help out there. And that was really the first sort of sign that I realized that actually voice is so so powerful, especially when it comes to victims of crime, who are often told to keep quiet told to stay silent. That alone shows you how powerful a voice can be because they're being told not to do it. Because the attacker is scared that if they do say something they're gonna get there's gonna be a consequence. And there sometimes is not all the time, unfortunately. But unfortunately, just the way their justice system works, I guess. So yeah, I think that was my first taste of seeing how really powerful like voice can be. Now when it came to my business when I first started copywriting hours, unfortunately, just like every other copywriter my messaging side of the same. And it got to a point where I was like, God, I do not want to sound like everybody else, like how can I be different? How can I use my personality, my voice in my coffee, and also on Instagram, for example, you know, talking on stories and doing podcasts. And that's really when I was like, Okay, I need to work on my differentiation and my positioning. And so my brand voice I've tried to make it firstly, it's me, like I am unique, everybody's unique. So if I can make my brand voice a bit more like me, then no one else will have that brand voice because no one else is me. And so when I talk on Instagram, and this is really where I first started to see that the power of speaking was I was getting so much great feedback, like people loved how natural I was, and how just personable and how much myself I wasn't stilted, I swore and I made weird jokes. You know, whatever the case may be. And I think a lot of that comes from my journalism training at university, I was taught how to speak on camera and, you know, speak to TV and things like that. So it comes from that, but it's also who I am as a person. So that's really where I saw the power of using voice. And I think every single time you speak and I know you teachers, teachers around you can speak on Instagram stories every single day or getting a podcast once a month. You're honing that voice and you're practicing every single time and almost like working out what stories work with the audience, what doesn't what doesn't land and I think Instagram stories and you definitely taught me this as well. Is that is that the best way to practice that? So I think Speaking has a real impact on business. But I can see that a lot of people would shy away from that, because it's not who they identify with, they don't identify as being sort of outspoken or loud, or they don't want to talk on camera. But I think it's important to remember that there are going to be other people in business who are shy, and also don't want to speak on camera. And if you can, maybe talk about that, use your stories, use your voice to explain that and people will relate to you. And so it's not about who's the loudest, it's just about showing up as yourself. And just, I've written this phrase I love and it's do something every single day that scares you. And the first time I spoke on Instagram stories, I felt like a massive idiot. Like, I'm not gonna like, I was like, I can't do this, because I've my personal friends and family on my Instagram. I just cannot do this like, and they'd be messaging me like, I have no idea what you're talking about. But I like it.
Heather Sager 50:56
Nicola Moors 51:01
Copywriting is like a little gray.
Heather Sager 51:04
Oh, my gosh, we all have that, oh, our sweet friends and family trying to cheer us on, but do not know what language we are speaking. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. We got deep there for a moment, but so powerful, right? When you think about the work that you did as a journalist like that, that's really powerful. And I think it's it's easy sometimes in this world of online marketing for us to keep it like, easy breezy and look at us building our businesses. But when we think about the context of really what it means to use our voice to leverage our platforms, we have to speak into the lives of other people there has potential to share some really big and powerful things. And I think for some that can be really scary to be like, well, all this attention on me, but also, what a gift and an opportunity that we have to be able to live in a world where we do have platforms available, but for us to share powerful messages. It's just our job to work on what is that message that we want to share and have the courage to step up, so I love that thank you so much for sharing. We're gonna down here, I could talk to you all day long. I have so many follow up questions for copy. But I'll just save that, we'll just kind of give people the it was more than a taste like so many, so many brilliant little nuggets today on the show. I can't wait to see the show notes for this. So side note, y'all, you know, you always get the show notes and we'll have links to links to get in touch with Nicola and find out more about her work. But beyond this show notes piece, I want to give people the opportunity to check out your Instagram stories. So why don't you talk a little bit about where people can connect with you beyond. Tell us your Instagram. But also beyond that, where's the best place that people can learn more about what you do?
Nicola Moors 52:43
Sure, so no pressure for my Instagram stories. So my Instagram is @nicolamoors, so super simple on my website and actually, I'm always on Instagram. So that's probably the best way to reach me. But you can find out more about what I do at my website, which is www.nicolamoors.com. Super simple.
Heather Sager 53:00
Will link both of those directly in the show notes wherever you're listening to this, you can grab those, definitely go follow it. And you all know that I love this. This is super, super important. Everyone listen to me loud. I tell you this every single week but I must say in a different way. I always say Hey, y'all would you share a screenshot of the episode and post it in stories and tag us. But let me just call this a little bit of a different thing today. Sharing our stories can be really, really scary. And a lot of times when we step up on a podcast, no matter how comfortable we are, when we do it, it can be wonderful and sometimes you get DMs from people, sometimes you get downloads, yes, sometimes it leads to things, but there's not always as immediate feedback. And as a creator or as somebody putting yourself out there it can be really freaking terrifying. And as you're getting new and getting started with it, like the more feedback you get, the better it feels to keep going. So I'm going to ask you all share a screenshot of today and call out what little nugget helps you what you loved about it. But tag Nicola, give her that gift back that she's giving you today to show her some love because y'all we need to be telling people that we hear you, we appreciate your message and the best way you can do that is to tell other people about it. So tag us in your Instagram stories =, give her some love. I wrote down like a full page of notes the nuggets I took out of the episode which you'll see in the show notes but would you do me a solid and put it in your Instagram stories so we can get this message out to more people. I am so grateful for you. Thank you for everything you shared today. I love to give people the opportunity to share any final thoughts that they have. So is there any other messages that are on your heart or in your head today that you want to make sure people hear before we say goodbye?
Nicola Moors 54:35
I think just don't be scared to check in numbers, that numbers are evidence so that's what I'm gonna gonna leave you with.
Heather Sager 54:42
Yes, the number piece you know it sounds so, depending on who you are, it could be sound sexy, it could seem logical, but also it's super, super important that I think the more that we focus on that as business owners, the more the intentional we can be in the work that we do. So thank you for putting that spin on creative copywriting into the numbers piece of really balancing those what a gift you gave us today and I appreciate you so much.
Nicola Moors 55:07
Thank you so much for having me. And I love what you said about tagging me on Instagram. Words of affirmation is my love language so I would love to hear any feedback.
Heather Sager 55:16
We'll give you as much as we can tell her to help me out on that one because I can only do so much I'm just a girl with an Instagram handle, helped me out with that. Alright friends, see you next week for another episode, but until then we'll see you over on the interweb.