37. Becoming a Trusted Authority in Online Marketing with Andrea Howe

It's that word that seems so immeasurable—trust.

Today we’re breaking it down and giving your tangible strategies for building trust faster with your online audience in my interview with the founder of the Get Real Project and co-author of The Trusted Advisor FieldBook — a comprehensive tool kit for leading with trust,  Andrea Howe.

Get the full notes + links referenced in today’s episode here.

This is the last part of a 3 part series on building the “know, like & trust factor” with your online audience, focusing today on TRUST.

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spk_1:   0:00
I'm Heather Sager, and you're listening to finding your a factor. Episode 37 We're wrapping up a three part guest syriza about building that know like and trust factor in your online business, focusing today on trust. It's that word that seems so immeasurable. Well, I'm helping you break it down and start building trust faster with your online audience in my interview with the founder of the Get Real Project and co author of The Trusted Advisor Field Book. Ah, comprehensive tool kit for leading with Trust Andrea, How this is a good one today. So, no, Have you ever wondered how some people just seem to have a way with words? They have this spark that lights you up when you're near them. They the it factor. And while most people think it's something that only a few are born with, I believe that you can find it so it could become your superpower to grow your business. It's about you bringing your brand to life by becoming the magnetic communicator in person and on camera, showing up with confidence, authenticity and inspiration. So are you ready to become magnetic? I thought so. I'm rather Sager and I'd like to welcome you to finding your factor. Welcome back to another week, friend. I hope you are doing wonderfully on this beautiful day. Whatever day is that you're listening for me that I have in this episode comes out. It is Wednesday and we are, I don't know, like, six or seven weeks into this permanent home life because I'm growing a garden there. Seedlings happening in my little window in the kitchen and there sprouting and were a movie. Those little buds out to the garden. I feel so domestic. It's pretty funny. It's funny the things that we start doing when we're going stir crazy in our homes. But I hope that you were getting some kind of sense of a new routine. You're finding your jive with your business. With your family. It's Ah, man. It's just an interesting time that we're all in. And you know, it's It's fascinating because for many of us we have online businesses and more used to building relationships virtually. And it's been very fascinating watching so many other businesses transition into the virtual words world. So if you're in that position, welcome, welcome to virtual. It was always a little skeptical about this idea of being able to market exclusively through the virtual space. I've always been a it always in been involved in live events and face to face relationships with clients and customers, and it took a little practice and a little experience moving of the online space and understanding that cute can absolutely build incredible relationships online. And so it's one of these topics today. You know, the last couple weeks we've been talking about bringing your personality into how you interact with your with your audience. So whether that was through emails from he talked to Bobby about putting more personality in your emails, whether that was showing up and using your voice to be in the ear buds of your audience each week through podcasting last week with Crystal, we've been talking about How do you bring more of you into your content to start having your audience know you like you, and then ultimately lead to trust? And there's this misconception around the idea of trust that trust takes time. And while that's partially true, I learned years ago from today's guest that you can build trust in moments. Trust begins the very start of a relationship, and she taught me what that actually looked like and help me understand that trust is trust is something that shows up in every single moment, every single touch point that you have with another person. So whether that's in the face to face whether that's in the virtual space with that's in your written copy. You know this. I've been saying it for weeks that every interaction that you have with your audiences an opportunity to demonstrate your brand, promise or devalue it or undermine you have to determine how are you going to show up? And I think we don't put enough emphasis on that trust piece. If we're going to do business with someone online, we have to be able to trust them. So today's episode the reason why I was so passionate about doing this one is this idea that in the online space we're so used to the formula, the formula, right rebuilding audience, you put out a freebie. You put the freebie out there, get people engaging with it, and then Boehm, here's the program and I think I think a lot of times this has become a transactional thing instead of a understanding that to have someone truly want to invest in you and your programs, they have to ultimately feel connected and believe that you're going to help them get the results that they're after. So trust is a big piece of that. But I I'm not the kind of person who likes to just hope that trust happens. I want to ensure that the way that I'm showing up in my content in my marketing gives confidence to you and my audience around how I can help you get results. And I do that by sharing with you tips and strategies that do get your results completely for free, but also help help provide additional value to you. That maybe goes beyond just my content. Okay, I'm kind of rambling a bit, but what I'm getting at is trust is one of those things that I want you to be more intentional with and not have it be an afterthought outcome. Which is exactly why I brought Andrea here today. So Andrea, I said in the opening. But let me just give her her formal. Let me do the justice on this because she is absolute incredible. I have to tell you, she is by far the most incredible human being. So generous, I have to tell you. So I I hired Andrea years ago to come into my old company as a consultant. She did some trainings for our entire organization. And I have never been more impressed with someone who I've hired before for training. See, not only showed up for the to think of a three day training I can't even remember. But she only showed up completely prepared. But she did her homework. She immersed herself in our organization to get to know all of the nuances. So when she would show up, she she knocked it out of the park for our people. And the thing that I was really fascinated with Andrea was actually one of the first ones that I had ever noticed doing. Zoom calls for consulting and prepping for a big live training, and she would show consume call. She had a video camera on. She had her headset on. She was so personable. And I remember being like, wow, in the corporate space, people don't turn on their cameras, which now, in this space is totally hilarious, but I was just impressed with her from the moment we connected a trusted her and so moving forward, Andrew came out. She did some trainings for organization. I was so blown away. Our team loved it so much. It was so valuable, so actionable. We continue to stay in touch, and she worked with the organization for years. And when I ended up leaving my old job starting my new business, Andrea reached out and congratulated me and then offered a hand, meaning she's like, How can I support you in your business? So we kept in touch. We connect every few months just to check in and see how each other is doing. We help each other a bounce, ideas off each other, and I am just so grateful for that business relationship. But I'm most excited for you to hear from her today because no cash guys, her content is so good now. What's interesting is when I originally approached Andrea about coming on the show, we laughed for a moment because she she does not work with online entrepreneur. She typically works with larger organizations in a consulting perspective, and she's like, Man, I don't know how to translate this specific to your audience, they told her. Andrew, don't worry about it. I will translate, but your content honestly, it fits like a glove. So I think you're going. Teoh. You have to get a note pad out on this episode because there are so many good golden nuggets. So if you're driving, flag this episode and come back to it to write down notes, because it is so good you definitely want to go over and check out the show notes for this one because I made them meaty for you. So that way you can take and run with this information. Start implementing it into your content and your marketing. But let me give the formal Let me get the formal bile of Andrea. So she is the co author with Charles Green of The Trusted Advisor Field Book I mentioned. It's called The Trusted Advisor Field Book, a comprehensive toolkit for leading the trust. She's also the founder of the Get Real Project and the principal with trusted Advisor associates. Andrea is a recovery and information technology consultant who's spent more than 25 years working with clients, managing projects and facilitating groups of all kinds and sizes. I am one of those groups will mow many of those groups. She's talked to my group's multiple times. In 2006 she got laser focused on the subject of trust at work, specifically what it takes to create exceptional relationships that are both distinctive and lasting. Andrea, since work with executives, leaders and teams throughout the U. S and Canada, she's also taught in Mexico, Brazil, Norway, Finland, Denmark, Austria, Singapore and so many more places. She's constantly described by our audiences as thought provoking, engaging, practical and riel. I can absolutely tested that. And after producing so many events for so many years, I knew my audiences would always love working with her. And she always got the best feedback. I mean, you can take and run with it, so I'm not gonna beat around the bush any longer. I want to jump into this episode, but real quick. Before we dio, I want you to think about where you're at right now with your audience. I bet you're sitting in a position where you've been building your audience regardless of size. Maybe you have a few dozen people, maybe a few 100. Maybe you're approaching the couple 1000. Mark your in this spot right now where you're starting to get your confidence that your understanding, who they are and you want to get out there a little bit more. You want to start accelerating this know, like and trust factor we've been talking about. This is where I want to remind you that it's only part of the equation for you too, to do the marketing online and have people come to you. The other part is this is where you have to start taking bold action and getting your face and your name out there to start finding your people. And that could be a little bit of a scary thing. So I don't want it to continue to scare you to be intimidating so you don't take action. But this right now, this season, in our lives and our businesses, this is the time for you to say, Hey, I'm gonna step out of my comfort so and start getting visible. I'm gonna start putting myself out there for a podcast. I'm gonna start raising my hand to say, Hey, I would love to guest teach in your program in your Facebook group. Hey, I have this really great thing. Can I come provided to your students putting, raising your hand, putting your name out there to start talking to more people. That's how you're going to start growing your brand and business. You have to get eyeballs on your content. It's good now you just have to get more people seeing that. So I believe that the big way to do this is making sure that you know how to talk about your content in the language of your audience, and that comes down to having a signature talk. Now this trip's have a lot of people because they're not quite sure what that includes. How do you approach it? How would you even go about finding these stages that I talk about podcasts, guest interviews, guest lectures, guests, workshops? How would you go about that for And, you know, have you covered on this? So if you haven't yet downloaded my guide for online entrepreneurs to get started with speaking on stage is I'm not just talking about event stages. I'm talking about all of these virtual stages that are in front of us right now. There are so many stages that you could be on like next week. You want to get started? Go grab the guide. It's the five steps to get started specifically nuanced four online entrepreneurs to help you get your message in alignment and start reaching out to the right kind of people. So go grab it. It's over at heather Segar dot com forward slash five steps. Once you got your guide and you're good to go, keep it moving. Because here is my great friend and trust expert Andrea. How? All right, friends, welcome back to another episode. This one is going to be a good one. And I know I say that every week, but for reals ease because I have my good friend Andrea. How here, Andrew, welcome to the show.

spk_0:   13:35
Thank you. Hey,

spk_1:   13:37
so excited to dive into a topic that obviously you are very passionate about, but you turned me on to this idea of understanding trust in a way that I've never really considered before. I feel like I have great success in building relationships and developing in my career. But I had never really understood why some of the things I was doing was working and you taught me not only to understand how relationship building was working by creating trust, but then how to make small, incremental changes to become even mawr and Pakal with it. So I can't wait for my audience to hear from you. So first off, though, they might not be familiar with who you are and what you do. So could you please share

spk_0:   14:17
the Yes, sir. So I am the founder of an organization called the Get Real Project. Our mission is to kick conventional business wisdom to the curb and transform how people work together as a result. Said, unless mission like in lofty terms, maybe I basically my team and I teach people how to make a bigger difference with their clients by being extraordinary in the relationship side of their work. So we do work. I used your clients for reason. I'm a recovering I T consultant. We work a lot in the consulting space, but not on Lee. We worked with anybody whose success depends upon their ability to have extraordinary relationships. In short,

spk_1:   15:04
Yeah, I love that. And you dio you're an author. You teach workshops, you do consulting a variety of things. What's interesting. You and I were chatting before we went live. Here is the space that I work in the online education space for coaches, course creators, service providers, not a silly space that you typically work with. You typically work with corporate companies, right? Exactly. That's how we beg. You actually came into that my former company and workshops consulting, and it was interesting because we were talking about my audience. So listeners you here today is It's not necessarily the normal client that you would work with but the principles of trust and relationship building. I was telling you, there's so many things that I think we can pull from what you do into this space. So lay this out here all translate if there's any terminology or things to bring this into coaches course, create a service providers all trends like that. So you talk Teoh us like you would normally talk to a client today. Don't worry about that. The principles like they transcend regardless. So I want to start the conversation by talking about the word and the concept of trust were in a Siri's talking about the idea of the like know and trust factor. So I think an overused marketing term, like it's jargon that I feel like has sometimes lost its meaning. So can you break down for us? What is trust? And when we talk about relationships, like how these things play together?

spk_0:   16:28
Yeah, sure. So what I'm gonna break down for you actually is not trust. I want to be more specific. Even with the turn. Love. I want to break down trustworthiness. And I want to give a shout out right here, right now to my co author, Charlie Green. Together, he and I wrote a book called The Trusted Advisor Field Book. Charlie is sitting

spk_1:   16:49
on my desk right here. Okay, I'll show video this site. And I have this on my book, and I refer to it quite frequently, and it posted highlights its But some of the students in my program they know I bring this out and talk about elements from this aside. No, I'm gonna link to this book in the show notes because it is good.

spk_0:   17:08
Thank you. Appreciate that. So, Charlie is theory Rich, one of the three original authors of a book that was published 20 years ago, called the trusted advisor that basically became and in many, many ways still is like it's like the relationship Bible in the consulting industry. And given that original book, Charlie and his co authors created something or shared something articulated something with the world that they called the trust equation. So I just want to make sure credit is given where Credit's due. I did not invent it, Wish I had. I do think I have brought some understanding of it and some subtleties and nuances to how that you use it on and can make the most of it. But in essence, Charlie, um, and company defined. They set out to create some clarity to a term that is otherwise used in many ways quite casually and with with a lot of ambiguity dryer. Yeah, and he started by saying, Let's be clear that the tea is not trust but trustworthiness, and it's really meant as a model or framework for how we create for our own personal trustworthiness and how were experienced by others. And he, um and I love that. He zeroed in on trustworthiness for the primary reason that it means that we get to zero in on what we can actually do something about. Because I can't necessarily do something about directly whether or not you are a trusting person. I can directly influence your the likelihood that you will trust me and find me trustworthy for good and honest and high integrity and genuine reasons. Yeah,

spk_1:   18:55
Interesting. It's an interesting, just minor shift, right? This idea of trust being this big, ominous and overused thing honing in on the trustworthiness factor. But that thing that you just said I wrote it down, how were experienced by others? Yes, I think that or something. Maybe I have my shorthand might not be perfectly right, but that idea like I I think that it's so interesting to think about because I think a lot of times we assume that things were out of our control. And what you're saying is that we have the ability to influence how others experience us through through this idea of trustworthiness.

spk_0:   19:32
Absolutely. I mean, we cannot control it per se, but I like your word influence. We can definitely influence it. And you know, you we can attempt to use the force for good, or we can attempt to use the force for evil, although I think that if we use force for evil, we get found out, if not quickly, at least eventually. So the ascension is when when we say influence were not meaning coerce or manipulated or, um, you know, create some like a hollow brand or, ah, perception that isn't true, up with what's real and what's so. But we can certainly take very active steps, including in our very first interaction, and I think think this out loud with me. But I think that's absolutely true in that first interaction is virtual conversation, a live conversation or potentially even, you know, a mass mailing going to a distribution list. We can take very specific actions to demonstrate ourselves as trustworthy people.

spk_1:   20:36
Okay, I think this this is something that we're going to dive into a little bit of talking about how that could happen on a couple of those different ways that you just described, whether it's in person, not working or its building trust from very specific, but from a Facebook app like the whatever the engagement is when you're working with another person, that first impression from that first moment, you can influence that trust. And I think in the online space there I think there is an internal battle that happens a lot with entrepreneurs of they've been quote unquote sold to before that used for evil thing that you mentioned I instantly and picturing the over sales person, shoving stuff down people's throats or bait and switching people into buying their product. And I think we've been so turned off by that that were very skeptical of being sold to. And it's online entrepreneurs we have just sell. So I think this conversation around How do you influence trust in an authentic way is there are things that you conduce so that you don't use your influence for evil or for some sales. So let's let's talk about that. I'm curious banter on that for a moment.

spk_0:   21:46
Yeah, I will also give you the Senate the breakdown of the framework of the trust equation. But I also wanted ad. I think you made such a great point, and I think not only is the onus on us, no matter the medium are no matter who it is, we're engaging with to be unsmiling. Me unsure lucky and UN sales like we're by Yes, but also figure out how to stand apart from the crowd. How are we really different? And I know you shared with me that sort of the topic of authenticity is important and, you know, maybe an overused word, you know, I don't know, but bringing sort of your true riel self and being, I think this is especially important for women as well, being willing to be unapologetic about who we are and who we aren't. But I think all that matters and contributes to us really standing apart.

spk_1:   22:38
Yeah. Yes, yes. 100%. Yes. Let's, uh let's dive into you mentioned. There's some elements that come into the trust equation. I know we're gonna We're gonna break that down, and then we're gonna go into some of the tangible things around how we can, how we can increase the influence of trust. So why don't we want to start with the equation itself just to get down some common language?

spk_0:   22:58
So Charlie defined trustworthiness as a function of four variables, if you will. So it's an equation. So if you picture, you know, align and there three things above the line in the numerator and there's one thing below the line in the denominator. And he said, trustworthiness is a direct function of in the numerator credibility, reliability and intimacy all divided by something he calls a self orientation. So in other words, for your trustworthiness to be assed high as possible, you want your credibility, reliability and intimacy to be as high as possible in for yourself. Orientation to be a slow It's possible. That's the gist of it.

spk_1:   23:38
I you know, it was fascinating the first time that I learned this. It was five years ago. I think when you came, we brought you in to teach a workshop

spk_0:   23:48
yours. Eight years old, I have to tell you

spk_1:   23:51
that. Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, that so Okay. So hot Minute. I remember. I remember having this really big realization through free all the time. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Different I had where I had worked hard. Maybe not really understanding the nuances of that idea of credibility, reliability, intimacy. I want to talk about that for a second, cause that word always seems a little weird to say at businesses. But the thing that I think it's so so important is the concept of self orientation, and I want to dive into this one a bit because I think it's interesting having a personal brand. So my name is my brand, and it's the same for many online entrepreneurs. Your name is your brand. It's easy. Teoh, get lost in this idea of talking about yourself and your stories, but the same time you're serving your audience and I think there's, ah, a weird balance and inner struggle that we have when we're trying to keep our like. It's not about us, but it is about us. There's a weird toggle. They're so self orientation has been one that's I don't want. The haunted is not the right word, but it's stuck with me. And it also is always there in my mind that sometimes it makes me a little apprehensive to talk about my own stuff in, Let's say, social media or my emails or whatever else because I'm going, Oh my gosh, is it about me? Hears about them? There is a boy, and so can you go there for a moment because the authorization one. I feel like it's really important to this audio.

spk_0:   25:30
Yes, and I can help with that dilemma. But so so self orientation is fundamentally about focused, which boils down to two things. Think, think in terms of your attention is your attention on them. You know, the universal them, your client, your audience, others out there or is your attention primarily on you? And generally speaking, we want the attention to be out there as much as possible rather than over here. But the thing that I the other dimension that I think will really help with the delivery just presented ISS motives. So why are we sharing what we're sharing? Saying what we're saying, doing what we're doing? Is it in service off others, or is it in service of ourselves? And if you're I think it's completely legit to share about yourself, as long as your motives Aaron check, you're doing it because and you just such a nice job of this with the things that you publish and share, you share very personal stories. Um, oftentimes you're sometimes embarrassing ones, or where you show plenty of vulnerability will talk about how that links it. Actually, it's more than one variable. It's like a trifecta when you do that, Um, but sharing a personal story. If we're sharing about yourself for the purpose of helping somebody else is in fact a low self orientation that high, so importation. And I think the onus is on us to become really grounded in that and clear about that and comfortable and confident and willing. Teoh would be a relatively open book, and not just in terms of embarrassing things or funny stories. And all of those things can be extraordinary and distinctive, by the way, but also being willing to own what we know and claim who we are and to stand firm and tall and unapologetically about what we have to offer the world. So just because it's about you doesn't necessarily mean it's high self orientation. But there are. There are some checks to check. Oh

spk_1:   27:26
my goodness, why are you

spk_0:   27:26
doing what you're doing? And where is your attention? Isn't really home them or on you?

spk_1:   27:31
Yeah, OK, so so well set that whole thing right there like, yes, go back, hit the little 32nd. Listen to that again, I It's interesting someone had said something on their podcast a year ago. I remember who it was or what exactly, they said but it stuck with me and I think it applies here. It was something along the lines of. If you're worried that you're talking about yourself too much, you're not one of the people that's talking about themselves too much that falls here, that for anyone listening, if this ideas we dive into some of these if you're if you're wondering like Oh, no, is it too much? If you're worried about it, you're not concerned,

spk_0:   28:09
are you're probably good. You're probably so okay.

spk_1:   28:13
I jumped ahead to the self orientation piece. Do you think would be helpful if maybe we define a little bit more on those other three areas so we can talk a little bit more around How to yeah, these together?

spk_0:   28:23
Yeah, sure. So before we go into each of the others, let me also say, because I think it's helpful to think about the equation as sort of addressing two realms. So this is a a way that I have come to think about it, that I found really helpful. Credibility and reliability tend to exist not exclusively, but they tend to exist more in the rational or logical room, an intimacy and self orientation tend toe lived more in the social and sorry, not social, but, um, emotional or psychological room and usually the people who we deal with on a regular basis, like super super smart consultants to, you know, they work in firms that range and variety of sizes, from boutique to the biggest global firms in the world. They have been taught to focus where, on the more rational or logical signs, that's what most of us who have a business background have been taught to focus on. That's how you create authority, issue, focus on your credibility. And the back to the matter is, if you want to be experienced, this trustworthy if you want for your audiences, your clientele to see you as a true trusted advisor, which we define as a safe haven for tough issues, you have to work all the variables, both the dimensions and in the work that we do. We typically focus so much more on the I and the S because that's what needs the most attention. That's what falls be home by the way side without some intentionality

spk_1:   29:53
behind. I think that also is the same in this space in the online space because people want to think about what results do they provide for their people. And it's always rational. It's always the logic it's does give me the financial metrics. I could grow their business by X, y and Z. Or is the touting how many years of experience or who we worked worth or or going after that, coveted, as seen in area on the website, Where have you been published of stages Have you spoken on like everybody wants that stamp of credibility. And so I think I think it's the same the rational thing, even though we know as marketers, we need to pull in the emotional logic. We don't go there first, and they're set Seems to be this thing, that it's one or the other, and it's finding that nuanced balance. They all do kind of dance with each other.

spk_0:   30:43
They absolutely do, and some of them really danced with each other. And, like I mentioned the trust trifecta, which I want to come back to because there are ways that you can have them. You can hit them all at once with one communication or one in a way of reaching out to people And that's where I think you really get the golden looking. I'm not knocking. But as CNN's, those are nice. And when I'm on the receiving end of the kinds of things that your audience is promoting, you know those things get my attention. They're just not the only thing that get my attention, if that's where the emphasis is, Um, uh to me, quite frankly, there's some Turn off to it because there needs to be, Uh, well, you talked about like likability. There's that. There's an approachability, a likability, a sense of, you know, what do I want to let this person into my life? Do I want to let this person in on areas of my business or my world? That might be a bit embarrassing or vulnerable for me. Um, And just knowing that you've been seen on whatever media out that does not, it's not necessarily going to make it safe for me to reveal the kinds of things I might need to repeal for you to be able to serve me really well.

spk_1:   31:59
Yeah, beautifully clip.

spk_0:   32:00
Thank you.

spk_1:   32:02
OK, let's Let's dive in before e. I love the context, though. I'm like big, always telling people like Step back, give people context before you dive into the nitty gritty. Because what happens if you lead straight into here exactly what X Y and Z is? People don't have the understanding to be able to make this fit into the world. So I like that idea. I in my programs I talk about it as bucket sizing things and 19 about your confident as Russian stacking dolls like Stack in Things. So now we're going to get into the smaller versions of those little dolls. So credibility, we want to start there.

spk_0:   32:39
Yeah, credibility, in essence, is about words. It boils down to what you say and how you say it. And most of us tend to focus on amplifying credibility by working on our credentials. Are Qualls R s seen on or a scene in? And that's definitely one dimension. But in working with this kind of working with this content now for almost 15 years exclusively, and I think there's another dimension of credibility, that is, it is. It is at least equally important, if not considerably more important. And that's honesty or truthfulness. You know, Ken, people count on what you say And there's some interesting twists, um, to trustworthiness. So maybe what do you want to do? You want to dive into the twists or do you want to go? Teoh Let it sit there. So what's fascinating to me about how trustworthiness works is that it's rife with paradox. And what I mean by that fancy word is that it appears to defy logic. So very often, the best thing that we could do to build credibility and build it quickly is to be really honest even, and especially if we're being honest about something that might make us look bad. For example, being willing to say I don't know or I have no idea. I know nothing about that being willing to cop Teoh, having made a mistake or screwing something up, being willing to confess that you're relatively new. It's something. Now if we can do that with a degree of self possession and confidence, that, to me, is that's a credibility. That's like credibility gold right there. Assuming that it's done genuinely, I don't mean false humility. I don't mean, you know, sort of sat being self deprecating in a disingenuously but just being absolutely clear. Look Here's what I know. Here's what I don't know. Here's why am here's who I'm not, um, and being willing Teoh reveal, um, some vulnerabilities. So that's where it's not exclusively. The sea variable is an exclusively rational and logical, but I think there is power there. And I think, like, you know, I'm on your mailing list. So when I get the messaging from you, that it to me, your voice house, a clarity, confidence in a vulnerability combined all at once, thank you, which is a huge credibility pillar.

spk_1:   35:12
Yeah, I'd love that. And I wonder if we could maybe dive in. I don't know if right now if it would be nested in another one. There's sometimes some. I get a lot of questions, a lot for my students in audience around how, like when this vulnerability to vulnerable And how do you tow that balance between sharing the rial stuff but also still coming across this? The authority? Do you have anything on that?

spk_0:   35:37
You know, it's a really good question. I can give you some guidelines. I wish I had, like, the magic answer, and I I think that magic, the magic answer is unique. to each of us. I do think first we'll go back to the question. Why am I sharing? Why am I considering opening up and sharing what I'm what I'm thinking about being vulnerable about? Is it really in service of others? And will it be helpful to them? Where is there something else going on? So make sure that high self orientation isn't creeping in. I think that's one guide posts. And I think the other guy post is to be willing to if that generally speaking vulnerability should feel at least a little uncomfortable or it's not vulnerability. So and we all have different tolerance levels, and I think we contest, you know, with our clientele and with our audiences. But it should feel a little, you know, it's you should feel a little itchy Hy vee like Oh, God, what did I just dio when you click the send button or you hit the save button or I want to go back to the lead? It Yeah, exactly on, you know and you learn, and I think our willingness to try it out and learn. And maybe you do publish something and you realize it was a little too far. It was a little too much or I wasn't quite grounded in it. Or it wasn't quite in the right space for with. And guess what? You could be vulnerable about sharing that. You know what? What did you learn? What did you see? I will tell you. I write weekly tips. So every Tuesday, almost every Tuesday but almost every Tuesday, a tip comes out and invariably the ones where I'm sharing stuff about myself. That feels yeah, for sure. Humbling, sometimes mildly or more so humiliating. You know where I think? Oh, God. Now I've gone too far. Nobody's, You know, how is this gonna go over those of the times where I get the most personal replies to my publications? So I'm getting the most hits on LinkedIn and the most and but not just the likes. But people actually taking the time to comment, and beyond that, the most personal emails in my inbox. Thank you so much for sharing this. You

spk_1:   37:50
don't This that just something right? There is such a very good examples to come into the coattails. Last week's episode I talked with Body Klink about how Teoh insert a little bit more you in your emails and he was talking about the metric going to be looking out are the replies and what people are saying, Yeah, we're talking about sharing a little bit more about yourselves, but this idea of being vulnerable and that, like that cringeworthy factor of like all should I have shared that like, that's a good and like indication of Are you sharing things that might move people to hit that reply? But so I I I love that example

spk_0:   38:22
well, and I think the other thing is this links back Teoh Rene Brown's point from one of her early Ted talks about it. Don't remember the exact quote, but she talked about how we perceive our own vulnerability very differently from how others deceit perceive our vulnerabilities. So for us, it feels like weakness into others. Witnessing our vulnerability, it occurs as courage. And I think that's the other key thing to remember is not to judge, to judge it by our own perception of it, because we got all kinds of junk getting in the way where somebody on the receiving end of this couldn't is gonna feel differently about your wow like that was really That was courageous. And, Oh, by the way, you know. Oh, my gosh, I can relate. You know, I had that. What was there? One of your recent evils was took me back to the eighties. Yeah, you're

spk_1:   39:19
talking about my trapper keeper and my radio show that I

spk_0:   39:23
had Yeah. And so, you know, we are all human beings and the extent to which we can make a human to human connection those air, the powerful connections. And when we reveal something about ourselves that guess what just about everybody else can relate to. Maybe not everybody is willing to admit it quite yet, but it still hits him on a certain level. I think that really also stand apart.

spk_1:   39:48
And even if sometimes like that's a great example of Even if people don't necessarily reply, it doesn't mean that your your words aren't making an impact. So that email specifically I got quite a few replies that people going Oh, my gosh, I didn't have a radio show. One of my when it was actually one of my girlfriends. She said Marco Polo, after the one should have to share with you. I didn't have a radio show, but my aunt, my my neighbor and I used to interview each other on a show that we called What's up my nose? And they were seven. And they would have this about winning this whole memory of them acting out. What's up my nose like four. It was a four minute Marco polo of her. Just reliving that memory with me and I have this going like, huh? I have no idea. I don't know what the Purple Trapper Keeper did for other people, but I hope for just a moment people reconnected with a good memory, right? Exactly. Oh, how funny. How funny is that? Okay, so credibility.

spk_0:   40:42
They're smart. I just want to add one other, like inside the nesting doll of the choice around. Credibility is that on the vulnerability piece, there's a fascinating phenomenon that occurs when you are dealing with a skeptical audience. There is studies that show, and I'm getting my data from Adam Grant spoke originals. Studies show that when we are addressing a skeptical audience, our natural tendency is to want to put our best foot forward and win them over with our strength and our confidence and our data. And in fact, the best thing to do is to put our worst foot forward first with a skeptical audience, you lead with the weaknesses, or you lead with the reasons why not. You know, If I were you, I might be thinking, or you have a valid reason Teoh to be skeptical and hesitant. You know, here's my list of 10 if im in your shoes on and I find that fascinating runs another great example of a paradox. Um, because ironically, what happens or paradoxically, guess system more correct were then, ironically. But what happens is when you're willing to leave with put to put your worst foot forward, he shows it doesn't number of things, including showing incredible confidence, and it shows that you really are tuned into and understand where your audience is. Or maybe, and that's another sort of hidden credibility builder that that gem of vulnerability gives us access to. Yeah, I

spk_1:   42:13
love that I goes back to when we were talking about the self orientation piece insane. Who are you doing this for? If you think about it by, I think I'll use an example. So many in the space use live Webinars Teoh educate their audience but also sell their programs. And what I hear a lot from people is going all my cash like, How do I transition to the selling piece? It's so uncomfortable and it feels weird. And I think one of the things thinking about when you're focusing on your audience and what they might be feeling just using that thing like a lying around Hey, like I know you have probably on Webinars. You sit there and have that skeevy feeling, like when it's a sale going to come like I just I I say that on my webinars. I do it very meta like I know my audience is very much in tune of what a sales webinar iss. So saying something like that the beginning and even even like making fun of it, if you will, or calling out what they might be thinking. Most people be like, Oh my gosh, I don't want you would think you shouldn't say that because you don't want to think that, but they're already thinking it anyways, so why wouldn't you? You could create that. You just put words to That's my strategy of what I dio because I That's what I'm thinking when I'm watching a sales weapon are I would want something calling

spk_0:   43:25
coming once it coming. Yeah, totally. And you can completely abort that distraction, cause that's what a huge distraction that is from the core of your message. All right, what's she going to try to sell me now? Yeah, claimed it on the table.

spk_1:   43:38
When is it coming? When is it coming? Like, Yeah, get it off the table and just and just bring the conversation back to what it really needs to

spk_0:   43:44
be. Yeah, okay, we got two more variables way have, like, three hours to great work. Let's say reliability. So reliability is, in essence, about actions and the extent to which what you say you're gonna dio and what you do dio lineup or when they fall out of alignment. The extent to which year in communication about that as quickly as possible. So it's fundamentally about consistency and predictability. And in many ways, it's the most Monday and over the four variables, at least in the world that I come from in the corporate world, it's like table stakes, it in the world that I come in. It's Table six, although I'm thinking out loud here with you that in the in the world of online offering straight simple that maybe it's not safe to assume that Oh yeah, you're going to get that tip out every week. Are you going to do

spk_1:   44:40
this in our monthly? This is a hard one for people. It's picking. What's the platform? I'm going to show up and then get me? It's It's not whether it's a block, whether it's a podcast, whether it's e mailing their list, whether it's consistently showing up on instagram stories or instagram in general or face like that. Showing up piece, that is, it's really easy to get on the trade and get excited for it. And then you get distracted because you start working with their paid students or whatever else that, like showing up consistently. It is a big challenge

spk_0:   45:08
well, and it is, for me a swell for certain things like, it's not a challenge for me to show up, you know, very, very far in advance for any person program that I'm delivering, not a problem there, but getting those weekly tips written. There are times where it's a bit of a death march leading up to the Tuesday So our or even it feels like that when I just go into open the document to write the next one for the minute, the few minutes it takes me actually get into it and get something rolling. So yeah, I can appreciate that. And it's not to say to me, reliability is not about perfectionism. That's not what we're aiming for. It's not about being a immaculate and never screwing up. Sometimes usually once, sometimes twice a year. My weekly tip is copping Teoh. I screwed up, and I did not manage to get a weekly tip written for this week. So here's what I'm gonna do instead or I'm giving you a week off. Or here's a recap of some other things. Or here's what I wrote about what I learned about sharing that vulnerability the last time I saw after this up. You know that you're not getting something new and brilliant today because they're just, you know, and I think as long as that's your exception, more so than your rule, not only are you at least maintaining a reliably, but you're also building some credibility through your honesty and some intimacy as well. Um,

spk_1:   46:32
yeah. Okay. I like I like that. You know, I had This is OK. Talk about being vulnerable on. And I'm gonna given embarrassing share here from Okay, I had a I had a more defined thing happen earlier in the first quarter of this year, I got really excited. I had a new freebie. A new guide that I had published in January. Got that out? I released it on a podcast. I started getting people signing up. So then on the next episode, I was like, Well, let me do another free guide to go with that. And I recorded the podcast, talked about the guide before I had finished it yet. And then I got really, really, really sick. And then I had to travel, and I never finished the guide, and there was an opt in where people on that episode would opt in. It was my Topics episode where I was teaching people how to choose the right signature topic. So what I did is on the email chain. Once you signed up, I had said, Hey, I screwed up. You probably heard the episode. I was super sick. I'm gonna get this to you in the next week. Started working on it. Not gonna lie. I totally forgot about it. Totally. And in March, I get an email randomly from someone saying, Hey, I signed up for this thing and it's not there and I'm like, Ooh, oh, my gosh! And I go and check my email service provider and there's not a time. There's like, maybe 20 people have signed up. Six of the people have signed up. Have unsubscribed from my list who now probably think I'm a total schmuck e schmuck. And I'm mortified, right? So I finished the freebie. I get it written, I get it published. I had one of those cringe worthy moments, so I just delete the whole thing and just, like, pretend like it didn't happen. But, no, I had committed to it. So I finish it. I emailed the people who still are on my list, and I send them a video to go with it. That pretty much cops up to median idiot. I'm so sorry. And I offered them a It was like a 15 minute training that went with it about a particular subject. But I'm sharing this because this just happened and I'm so embarrassed by I did not follow through on my words, which I had all these things going. Like these people probably think that I am a schmuck e person because I had talked a big game. I e mailed to see authenticity. I screwed up on that. I didn't deliver, so I think it happens. It happens. It just happened, and I'm mortified by and I don't want to do it again. But the reality is like you still gotta figure out how to show up

spk_0:   48:52
well, And I think, um, thank your tail is you know, I'm hugging and along the way as you're sharing it, it's a great illustration of how mistakes are inevitable. And it's how you handle them that reveals to borrow that Martin Luther King Jr Oracle the content of your character and there's your content. And there's content of your character and, you know, stuff. The proverbial stuff is gonna happen. It's what you do about it that matters and being in communication as quickly as possible. In your case, it sounds like, in fact, you were as soon issue, you know, or pretty close after you realize Holy cow, I just completely forgot. You got interaction about it, and that's what matters. This we're all fallible. And so there's a balance point to be found there. You got to

spk_1:   49:43
do it. And also it's a some point. There's only so much that you can do, like for me for half a second. Michael, my gosh, skeptical. Find those people that unsubscribed and try Teoh, right? Tryto it. At some point you do what you can do and you keep moving and you can't mole over, and sometimes you're not going to be as consistent as you want, but it's getting right back on and keep moving with it. And just keeping

spk_0:   50:05
that get new day. Start over. All right,

spk_1:   50:09
Reliability. It did. This is a challenge. I think we all have our what's the expert like your Achilles heel of something? Whatever that looks like for each of us, it might be a little bit of time, but being aware of it, yeah, I think it's important. Were there any any twists that you wanted to share around this reliability piece? I can't remember. We were bantering about this before.

spk_0:   50:29
Yeah, The only twist I have is well, there couple, actually, little ones is to be mindful of, um, whether you're focusing on being super reliable with one stakeholder group more so than another, like with the consultants that we work with their typically like right on it. If a client an external client, emails them, but they'll let their colleagues emails just sit for days on, Ron answered. Look, none of us is dealing with a shortage of email in this day and age. So I understand the tendons here, that desire to triage, which it's logical in one way. But it's a real trustworthiness trap in another way, because if you're being one way with one stakeholder, open another way with a different group, you have a consistency problem, and if you have a consistency from, you have a reliability problems.

spk_1:   51:18
So that's so good. I am thinking about that, applying that to this space that might be treating your pain students and clients with more attention than your free free clients. Your stuff that you're putting out there, However, I mean you need to put your time and attention you're paying clients, but just thinking about how are you approaching your free Facebook group versus I don't know, your pick like it just different stakeholders. But this your internal team, your overall marketing strategy you're paying people private clients is interesting question to be asking yourself

spk_0:   51:51
Well, and I think you know this solution doesn't run with more than 24 hours a debt in a day, although if you have a magic elixir for how to come up with that Hey, I'm sure we got a lot of times love to hear it. But the key to me is about being in communication. So, um, one of the quick hit suggestions we offer if you cannot get back to everybody right away to find some way at least to be in touch. So it's a quick, you know, in our world is quick email or live asses. Hey, I got it. Among the case. Unfortunately, you won't hear from me until next week. Let me know if that's a problem. It takes 10 seconds to type that out. Or maybe it's maybe there's some social media posts that updates them about. You know something? You know just what's going on for you. I'm a big fan with email of Auto beyond using the auto reply as right to touch base with people and having creative auto replies that are interesting. Or maybe share something about yourself. I one client who says, You know, I feel like Andrea is always in touch even when she's completely out of touch, in large part, because when I know that I'm gonna be out of communication for a while. I've got an auto reply set, so at least they're hearing something for me. And an expectation is being set about my responsiveness.

spk_1:   53:06
Yeah, okay, I love that word. The expectation is being said about it, I think especially for those of us who came from corporate worlds, that we have this idea that we had to work 24 7 and now we run businesses and think like, Oh, we're in it 24 7 We build up this own our own, I think pace at which we think we need to be communicating with people or we have that expectation for people that we work with. So I love the idea of setting up expectations. I don't like for me. For example, I don't really reply to emails a ton anymore. I have certain days and times that I go in there and clean them out. I love the idea of an auto responder to train people around. Hey, I got your message. I respond to emails on Tuesdays and Thursdays. You'll hear from me. If it's urgent, please email my team at this one.

spk_0:   53:52
Exactly or in our world, that's potentially a bit more high touch. You know, if you need to reach me urgently, call my mobile and give my mobile out all the time. Um, that may be different in the world that you all are living in compared to the world that we live in. But can I tell you I can count on one hand in more than a decade? How many people have actually called the mobile? Because it was so time sensitive. Yeah, And when they did, I was glad they did. Because I was able to You don't be responsive.

spk_1:   54:23
Yeah, Okay. That's a great point. Probably not going to give it on my phone number any time soon, but I think there's some lessons we can learn from that. For sure,

spk_0:   54:30
I will tell you do get the hesitation around it. I was at a, uh, global conference once for the Society for Human Resource Management. Sherm and I think it was Dan Pink who was the keynoter. One of several key nutters. Us not here. And the audience is between 15 and 20,000 people. Big freakin conference. Yeah, and he gave out his mobile number from the stage, and I thought, Wow, that's bold. And I thought, You know what? I bet he never gets called. They never get So anyway, it's I'm not necessarily saying you shouldn't do it. It's

spk_1:   55:05
fascinating. That is a thing that's happening right now. It's a trend in online marketing. You see some of the big names DeAndre, zoc, Jenna, Culture, Grant Cardone, quite a few others that are actually giving out a number. I thought, I think it's a tech service that's offering this like number thing, that I don't know it. I don't know, really old thing. Yeah, this is a tactic that's being used, and it's granted people are doing these text messages back and forth. I don't think it's their actual phone number. I don't know, though, like it's very interesting, but I do agree that when you do offer that up to people that, like I've offered up free sessions to people before and they don't necessarily take you up on it Like, But just having a out there does build this sense of trust. Even if they don't take action on the thing,

spk_0:   55:49
as long as it's genuine, right? If it really is some gonna service and be transparent, like, here's the next best way to get me. You know, this is a service you can call into. I will, Yeah. Pretend that pretend Don't pretend that you know you're actually gonna answer the phone If you're no way in hell, you're actually gonna answer the phone?

spk_1:   56:06
Yeah, Just to clarify, I think those people using that it's a real phone number going to summer. But I'm imagining there's some kind of, like texting online that they can go in and respond. Teoh Real numbers. I don't know what the deal is, but kind of cool, though. Okay, let's talk about the the weird one from lack of waste, of provocative of Let's get intimate in business with our

spk_0:   56:29
with Well and it's intentional. It's an intentionally provocative words, so intimacy fundamentally equates to safety. That's really what it's about, and it doesn't mean being private and crossing lines and t m I. And you know, being inappropriate in a business context. It fundamentally means it's the report and related nous and connection and ease that people either do or don't experience with views. So if they experience you is generally safe, safe haven safe person Teoh engaged with, Then your intimacy score is going to be high. And there, um, you know, there's so many ways that you can create intimacy and, in fact, even create intimacy quick. It's just big myth out there that first of all, it's a myth. It trust. Building takes time. It does not necessarily take time. You could build a high degrees of trust quickly. Most often, people assume that intimacy takes time to build, and that's that's not accurate either. Of the four variables, reliability is the only one that absolutely, positively requires the passage of time. Because you're measuring this of these consistency. You have to have a certain number of data points in order to be able to evaluate, and even then you can accelerate it by giving them more data points. Um, so it intimacy can be built fairly quickly. And, um, one of the ways one of the simplest ways is to be a great empathetic listener like to really be, uh, connected to, dialed into and give people the experience of that. You really, genuinely, truly hear and understand them. Or you are at least attempting to if you don't understand them about your working, really value knowing. And I also think some of the personal disclosures and the vulnerability we were talking about earlier. That's another quick way to, paradoxically, build safety because people will feel more comfortable in a tease with you when they have a sense of who you are. And they know that you know, you're maybe in some ways not all that different from now in terms of the things that they struggle with or the fears that they have the embarrassment that they feel.

spk_1:   58:42
Yeah, okay, there's so much goodness within this one that I think it's so important when it comes to you building relationships but also relationships where you're helping people grow in a certain area. So many of the people that I work with our coaches or course course creators that help people navigate a challenge that they're having and get to the other side of it. So I think this one here is so important when you're working with someone who has to navigate some kind of internal belief, struggle or fear or a self Dow imposter syndrome. Whatever it is, we all struggle with some of those things. I think creating intimacy is a really important place to focus your energy on because you can't you can't help someone take the leap in. I'm not for me showing up on video or speaking on a stage. If I don't first help them believe in themselves and create space for them to fumble and sound like a blabbering idiot for a hot minute. Today you get to the point where they can confidently step on a

spk_0:   59:42
stage. Yeah, because learning who who's ever terribly graceful when we're learning something new, and if we are,

spk_1:   59:51
we're probably not learning the things

spk_0:   59:56
you're not eliminating somebody's discomfort. You're just making a little bit easier for them to be uncomfortable with you or around you or while they're learning from you.

spk_1:   1:0:06
Yeah, and it's almost like giving them the space to stumble, giving them the space to make mistakes, giving them the space to be. I always tell people, especially when it comes to role play or practice, like if we're doing that is practiced with me. Practice here in a space race before you go and try it on. People who are paid you for it like it's giving them the space where they can explore and and try things out and get down on themselves or whatever they need to do is work through those challenges. It's like when you start working now, I use these analogies all the time. When you start a new workout program, you're gonna be really believe sore for a week or two before you hit your stride. I I like that moment toe happen, the soreness that happens when people start working on public speaking. I like that to happen. Give them some safe safety to do that because they are going to be really sore if they're actually doing the exercises,

spk_0:   1:0:55
right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So how do I How

spk_1:   1:0:59
do we go? Go ahead. How do we create

spk_0:   1:1:00
a safe learning the change process mean? I think the hardest part of changes the emotional psychological side, is not the rational logical side, but we can all we all know what we need to do to it better be healthier that follow the X Step program in order to do something. It's not the logical following of steps to approve its navigating, its bumping up against a navigating and dealing with the the stuff that we come up against when we're trying to change something for ourselves and being a great partner in that I think is really important. And I think that includes being really skilled it feedback, which includes affirming feedback like Here's what was kick ass about, what you just did or what you just tried or what I really want to acknowledge before and then. I think it's one of those trust Trifectas to give really clear and honest feedback in terms of upgrades. Here's what you need to focus on because that's building. That's high credibility on your part, high intimacy and low self orientation. It's not worrying that they will like you because you say you really need to focus on this. It's being clear and confident in your assessment, Um, and it's also, you know, the the honesty of it in its own way creates a safety like I can count on Heather. Like I know I can count on Heather to be straight up with me. She's going to tell me like she's not going to just say nice things, you know, because that's gonna make me want to pay her more. She's gonna quick me, just going to tell me the truth. So I know if she says you nail that, you got it. This is good. Go do it then. I shouldn't. I can.

spk_1:   1:2:35
Yeah. Okay. I love I love that. I love that you pointed out. Well, there's two things I want to take this on. Love that. You pointed out the need for the positive, like, affirming pieces. I'm in love that you use the word the upgrades like, what do they need to upgrade? What are the things end within both of those focusing on the specific things. That's the powerful thing within A is just giving people general feedback around. Hey, you. You sound grade. That was awesome. Or you know what you need to build your confidence like that doesn't

spk_0:   1:3:04
help. How does that me and go back to like

spk_1:   1:3:07
metal in your mind over and over and over again of how do I think? I don't know. It's not helpful. So I think the level of specificity is really, really powerful bulls in those affirmations. But also in those upgrades. The other thing that you said, which I want to lean into for just a moment when you talked about this idea, the rational and the logical it's out there like that's not necessary what people need. They need the space for that. That transition that happens with change and where I want to hit for just a second in this space, the online space most everything that we can teach is available online via YouTube or Google like people confined the information. And I think often times when we discover like, well, what's our course about? Then we go online and realize that a pavilion other people are doing that. Then we freak out, so we try to cram it with more features and benefits and things. But

spk_0:   1:3:55
more stuff, yes, and the

spk_1:   1:3:58
thing that we have to remember is as a coach or course creator of service providers, that secret sauce is you helping people through that transformation you're talking about So this area right here of intimacy. This is a secret weapon for those who are carving out a space for themselves in the online space by offering group programs, courses with support, one on one coaching, whatever that looks like. If you are building relationships, you need to make sure that you're focusing on that space. That intimacy with these

spk_0:   1:4:27
people, you know really well said.

spk_1:   1:4:29
It's this is just it's such a such a good and get intimate. Okay, any twist that we need to be thinking about when it comes to intimacy or any of the other ones that we talked about today.

spk_0:   1:4:40
Well, one thing I'm gonna add about intimacy is a really interesting twist that comes from the research done by a man named Dr Rock Keel Dini, who wrote a book called Influence. The Psychology of Persuasion and I'll Give You Just I'm Gonna bottom Line It for You. And it's all about what it takes to be influential. And the bottom line that we learned from Chile knees lessons is that when we're in, when we're aiming to, if we're in the business of advice giving and we're wanting people to adopt our advice until listen to what we have to say. Most of us start with crafting our message in a compelling way, being articulate, being confident and all of those things are important. But they don't matter nearly as much as listening first, so that he actually to being influential, is being a masterful listener. And you have to Charlie Greens, language around. It is. It's not enough to be right. You are in the right to be right. You have to listen first before you offer your advice. Now, as I'm saying this, I'm going. It's very clear to me in a like a consulting engagement, how that works, or even in a workshop setting how that works. So I have very clear and definitive points of view about what doesn't doesn't work but trust building with trusted advisor ship trust based selling. But I have to be very mindful when I'm building or poor with a group of people. If somebody pops up as skeptic, a nice air having a very different point of view, I have to be careful about not just combating that. With my point of view. I have to show that I'm really getting what they're saying, that I'm getting underneath their concerns that I may be helping clarify the concern for them that I'm validating or affirming that it makes sense that they might see it that way. Um, even in it. And it can make sense that they might see that way, even if I disagree with it. But I got to get in their world in order to earn the permission, um, to be then in their world. So that's a another paradoxical thing, and that's directly tied to to me, to intimacy building on. And it lays the foundation for your credibility later, when you do want to a certain point of view, cause if you've listened well enough, then the chilled any phenomenon is known as reciprocity. The tendency to return a gesture if you have in fact listened well enough, then they will return the gesture of listening to you.

spk_1:   1:7:11
Yeah, I think what you're saying is Thean conversations in workshops. There's it's feel it's not easy by any means to do that thing. We're listening first. That's very, very hard. It feels like Okay, how would I even do that when it comes to the online piece But this is where we talk often about getting to know your ideal customer, your ideal audience and understanding what it is. They're thinking what they want. They need doing that work. As you start thinking about your marketing and your education that might require you getting on the phone with some of your people in your audience. Some of your ideal customers, like interviewing them and asking these questions. Teoh understand these things so you can weave that language into your marketing in your content like you. Just because you're not live or that you're not face to face with these people doesn't mean that you should jump over this stuff. So it still applies, like asking questions and listening without the intention Teoh fix them or prove their opinion wrong or what? Just listening, which is a very hard thing to do when you have all the answers,

spk_0:   1:8:15
exactly. Well, it definitely takes effort and patient patients. It doesn't necessarily unlisted real time conversations, and the same may be true in the online world. It doesn't necessarily take more time in the long run because you're far more effective when you listen first, sort of like the going slow to go fast or another metaphor is recognizing that you're really you know, we're not on powerboats here, and all we have to do to see the accelerator harder to get to our end result. We're all on sailboats, and none of us have motors. We have sales and the external forces and wind and you know, the better we tune our sails to the wind, the faster we're going to get to our destination. And sometimes on a sailboat, you know, it's hardly ever a straight line. You say decide. You said you said I again, that's the fastest way to get there. So I think it's like that in human relationships, and it seems to me that's true, whether it's in person or otherwise.

spk_1:   1:9:12
Yeah, that's a beautiful analogy with that, I think, especially in the pace of how things move in the online space. Everybody wants to jump on a jet ski and just power through, and I hear sexy a powerful yes, right There you go. You're welcome. But I think I and here's the thing. When you see a lot of other people appears that they're they're driving the jet skis and it's really easy to think about that, but I think constantly reminding yourself that you started this business for business for a reason. And the most likely that reason is to truly impact the lives of other people. That isn't a quick fix thing, like adjusting. Need getting distracted by the sexiness or the whatever smart getting that you see the people doing. Don't worry about that as much as it is about your long game, which is, if you build really great relationships, understand how to talk with people. Business becomes easier now. You can get your of the tactics and all those things later Doesn't really matter what those tactics are. You can learn how to. But that's just like rational stuff, like you have to really get the emotional stuff in shock because that's how you're going to play that longer game.

spk_0:   1:10:17
There's one other twist and I want I just want to call it out because it's something I think you do so well. And that is listening. Yeah, I think it's another trust trifecta, and that is effectively using humor, and it's really interesting to see if I can get it quickly. It's a breath of the references. A study done by the University of Pennsylvania Warton School actually shows a bottom line it for you. But when we use humor, well, it actually builds our credibility. And part of that is because we come across this confident and I don't mean joke telling I mean bits of levity or just, you know, self being. It could be being self deprecating, just with just the right touch with that, right, if you're overly self deprecating and too apologetic now, suddenly we have high self orientation in the mask. But when you can use humor effectively and just bring it forward, um, it's building credibility. It's building intimacy, and it's a little self orientation all of the same time. So and I love the way you do that and all of your communications.

spk_1:   1:11:25
Thank you, thank you. I think that's one of those things. It's funny that you said it's not joke telling because I am terrible at telling jokes like I screwed up the punch line. I'm horrible at it, but I I'm I've gotten comfortable with the fact that I am a funny person. It's one of my core values. When I think about my brand and my persona on a stage or off the stage, my business being funny and making people laugh, and it's it's for me. I've learned that life is going to deal, use, um, pretty hard shit sometimes, like there's going to be really, really moments. And I've learned I used to run from those moments. But I have learned to lean into those moments, and I encourage other people to sit with those really tough things to. And I found that finding humor when you're going through really tough things makes you able to sit with it and experience those feelings and push through whatever you need to push through because you're not. You're not Wall Alina that for me. I I I learned it through the death of my mom, where it's like my sisters and I still make jokes, which sounds so morbid, but we still find lightheartedness. We find light through those really dark moments, and I think when I work with people, it's not through these big tragedies, and I teach people how to speak on stages, which though sometimes their stories are very heavy, and what you have to remember is your goal isn't to bring heaviness on other people. You're your goal is to help them deal with whatever's heavy for them by casting a light for them. Yes, and so I use humor in that way because I do go dark. I do tell really sad stories that I cry and other people cry, but I don't want to make them feel badly. I want to bring them through it. So I've always use humor because naturally, I I talk about hard stuff and that makes me feel better and just naturally, has worked for me. And then I realized, Oh, there's actually a strategy, but this How nice, like

spk_0:   1:13:17
Hunt to your point. It's not an either or It's both hand right it can. It's light and dark. It's humor and seriousness. It's, you know, and it's not humor and levity and avoidance at the risk of processing and dealing with tough stuff. It's in spring, all of it to their

spk_1:   1:13:39
Yeah, and I think that just comes back to Let's start rounding this out a bit. I think when when you bring all of you the good stuff, the bad stuff, the vulnerable stuff, the confidence stuff, when you start really thinking about who you are in your entirety and then who you serve and how you want to connect with them. You learn to bring all those facets out. You don't try to bring out just the professional polished version of you and hide the version that's like crying in the corner around. What the heck am I doing with email? Or like when you start learning how to bring all the different types of your own personally dynamic? You learned that it helps people become more connected because they have more connection points to you. More reference points, more ways to connect with you. And I think that ultimately it's like the That's what we're going for with this whole idea of building trust.

spk_0:   1:14:25
Absolutely. And it also back to are the comments where you were making earlier about, especially in the online space differentiating. And there's a lot of content out there right? The content is likely not new. There's not that much that's new truly out there in the world. It's all just repackaged, regurgitated new slants. But we each individually bring a completely unique set of perspectives. You know, we have our own take. We have run background we have, you know, with the the tone and she phrase like, you know, everybody has their own special snowflake. But it's true, right? Nobody's gonna Nobody's gonna interpret an embrace and speak about trustworthiness the same way as I am. Even with the same exact core set of materials and some some will be especially drawn town. I do it and some will be especially drawn to how Charlie doesn't or any of our other associates. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's all good, but the world will be riel and be us and bring all that stuff to bear. Not only do I think the more we are a service, but the more we're just in integrity, with ourselves and self approving and self loving and who doesn't need a little bit of that on a regular basis.

spk_1:   1:15:44
I met the bat for sure. Okay, so I know I will be joked earlier. We could talk about this for two hours, and you and I have talked about this for more than that s Oh, I know that we've hit on a ton of things today, and I know that my listeners there may be so thrilled with just all these ideas, I'm sure their mind a sperling you mentioned a couple times that you do offer tips every week. Where can people go to learn more about you and maybe get on that tip list? Because I could use a little inspiration in my life every Tuesday

spk_0:   1:16:11
so you could go to the website that get real project dot com and in the upper right hand corner, and there's little linked to subscribe. That's probably the fastest way to get to the weekly tips. You could Yeah, so that's the fastest way if you want to sample them first, um, you could go to the resource is menu, and there's a weekly tips archive. I'm nearing 300 in the archives, which I am damn proud of. I'm gonna tell you can look atyou, reliability, doing things on a regular basis, like I am lucky I brush my teeth a few times every day. That's a real starts for me, but you can sample. They're all available like no strings attached. No email required inside the archives. Great. And

spk_1:   1:16:54
you you had shared with me a couple of links of some of the things we talked specifically about today that I was reading through beforehand. They're so good. So I met a link to a few of my favorites down below in the show notes. Yeah, and I just I mean, I am so appreciative for our for you, from one for being here today. But just our friendship in general. You have taught me so much over the last eight years. I guess it's been, But I'm so fortunate. You have helped me tremendously in my career in my business. And I'm so appreciative of you. And I know my audience is going to feel the exact same.

spk_0:   1:17:23
Well, thank you, Heather. End you, by the way. It goes both ways. You've done the same for me. Have been a huge champion for me in the work that ideo. So you take a look.

spk_1:   1:17:31
Many any parting words that you'd like to share right before we sign off here for the audience

spk_0:   1:17:36
way? Worst of that, Um, no, I got nothing untrue. Honesty

spk_1:   1:17:54
that's calling good. Andrea, Thanks so much for being

spk_0:   1:17:56
kind Link. Yeah. Mind

spk_1:   1:17:58
link is okay. All right, girl. Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate you guys. We will see you on the next episode, where we round out this trifecta on the like, No. One trust factor. I'll see you next week, Guys, thanks so much for listening to finding your it factor. And, hey, if you have a top coming up, you have to check out my free resource. It's called Nail Your Next Talk. 10 must ask questions before taking the stage so you can show up as an authority and turn that talking to future business. These are the questions that I use myself to prepare for my life talks, and they're going to help you ask the right questions of the person who booked you for the event. So the meeting planner or the client and it's going to help you serve your audience to the best way possible. It's gonna help you anticipate potential tack or 80 snags. Turn the Q and a time into a strategic place for content in. Make this speaking opportunity a lead generator for your business, so go get it Now. What are you waiting for? Its over at heather. Segar dot com forward slash 10 questions