The Heather Sager Show

Get More Out of Your Podcast Interviews with Christina Lenkowski

January 24, 2022 Heather Sager Episode 133
The Heather Sager Show
Get More Out of Your Podcast Interviews with Christina Lenkowski
Show Notes Transcript

One of the best ways to connect with your ideal customers is by becoming a guest on podcasts. But the big question is how do you find shows and get the host to say yes to YOU as a guest? That’s exactly what we’re diving into on today’s episode with podcast pitching expert and PR agency owner, Christina Lenkowski.

She’s sharing why pitching the “big shows” is a waste of your time, a simple strategy to find podcasts aligned with your ideal customer and what step in the pitching process is more important than the pitch itself. Plus so much more!

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Grab the show notes and full episode transcript here.

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Unknown:

So what I'm looking for when we book our clients is shows that are full of their ideal customer, we get really into their ideal customer before we kick off with our pitching. So I'm going to find out who exactly that is. Because I'd rather get them on a smaller show full of those people as opposed to a giant show of people that don't give a crap what you have to say.

Heather Sager:

Well, hey, friend, welcome to another episode of the heather Sager show. It's me, Heather Sager and I'm honored to be your speaking coach here today. In this episode, I've spent the last 15 years studying and building my communication skills to inspire and teach business owners and their teams from stages around the world. I've had the honor of speaking on more than 1000 stages on topics of leadership, premium brand positioning, sales, and of course communication. And now my focus is helping fellow online entrepreneurs become magnetic speakers, so they can make a bigger impact in the world, well growing their income. This show right here was designed to give you a dedicated space each and every week to grow your skills, and keep your big goals front and center. And if you liked today's episode, be sure to grab a screenshot and share it to Instagram and tag me at the heather Sager so I can get you a shout out and celebrate the work you're doing. All right, let's dive in friend, it's gonna be a good one. Alright, friends, welcome back to another episode of the show. First of all, let's give a big kudos last week for the takeover from Milan, I am so appreciative for him stepping up to the plate. I am still in the thick of not feeling so great. However, I could not pass up during this interview today with my friend Christina. So we are here. I have a little bit of a very manly voice, but I

Unknown:

think it's rugged and sound like it. Yeah,

Heather Sager:

yeah. We're gonna go with it. So Christina, welcome to the show. Friend. I'm so glad you're finally doing this.

Unknown:

I am so so excited to be here. You know, I've listened to your podcast since it began. I think I sent you a note before we even knew each other when she just started the show when I went to have its old title, and was telling her how much I liked it. And she's from Oregon, which are lives in Oregon now, which is where I'm from, and all that good stuff. So yes, I've been a big fan for a longtime member of Zulu. And I'm excited to to have this combo.

Heather Sager:

Look at you starting off with the fan girl and I love it. Thanks. Thanks for Oh, well. I feel like I'm on my COVID deathbed. I really I really appreciate that. That's like take some notes people this is how you started interview you make the host feel really damn good.

Unknown:

I'm here for it always here to make you feel good. Oh, yeah.

Heather Sager:

Well, that's good. Because today we're here to talk about podcasting, which is something that you're very passionate about. We've talked a lot about podcasting the show. It's one of the stages that so many people are interested in, especially in this online space. Entrepreneurs and podcasting are kind of like this peanut butter and chocolate pairing situation. We've talked about starting a podcast with crystal prophet. We've talked about leveraging a VA with Emily Regan for pitching. Today, we're going to talk about a lot of things related to getting on podcasts and what visibility looks like. And I am so excited from your perspective, because it's very refreshing. You and I have a lot of real talk. The Bs and I remember you and I relating specifically to the idea that what a lot of people sell in terms of PR, quite frankly, is BS and unnecessary in this online space. And it's tripping her up and getting them distracted. So don't don't don't there's the big PR

Unknown:

don't. I love it because it's true. That's one thing I love about you is like and I think that a lot of people that are listening to this podcast will relate to is you do cut through the bowl. And I think that that's what attracts people to to you. And that's also what attracts people to me because I am not here to do stuff. That is just a waste of time. I want to be you know, having my clients do things that are going to get them the best results.

Heather Sager:

Yes. And you do a phenomenal job at that. I remember not only were you fangirling you have sent you and your team publicity by Christina. Phenomenal. You guys have sent so many high high quality guests on the show. We I don't fill you all in on this a bunch, but I don't we get a lot of podcast pitches. I say that. I mean not a ton of podcast pitches. It's not a huge show people but we get podcast pitches every single week coming in. And we ignore quite frankly most of them because they are canned pitches from I don't know old white dudes. Yeah. Clearly, never I've read have they ever No. Yeah, we ignore most of them. But you and your team do pitch in a very different way and caught my attention and my virtual assistants attention right at the gate. And so when that's a lot about how our professional relationship started, but why don't we start things off? I'm getting cart before the horse. Why don't you formally introduce yourself tell Little People have told the little people I have the foggy brain today. Tell us little people.

Unknown:

Oh, that's gonna make me laugh for like, at least a day. Yes. So hello, I'm Christina Lynn Koski. And I'm a podcast publicist, and an agency founder. And really my goal and my purpose and my business is to help what we call traditionally underrepresented entrepreneurs, which are women, members of the LGBTQIA community bipoc community, get their voices out there and to be heard. So just like Heather just kind of mentioned for a while on podcast, it was like the same 10 white dudes just talking to each other about the same stuff. And that's fine, but it wasn't what I was really wanting to listen to. And so we I built this business from the ground up of just people who want to get out there and get their stories hold and help more people. I've been in the PR world for over 15 years. So I've been doing publicity, PR, I've sat through a lot of the bullshit for a long, long time. And so when I started this business, I was like, no. So we do things pretty different in our in our, in our company, we have guarantees, and we just pitch at a very high level. And it's stuff that I'm that I'm really proud of. And I've just built this business from the ground up.

Heather Sager:

Yeah, and you've done a bang in job, girl.

Unknown:

Thank you, thank you,

Heather Sager:

you throw it out there. So let's actually go there. When you say you offer guarantees,

Unknown:

like we say that. What I mean by that is just that. So when people hire us, we guarantee a certain amount of aligned bookings. So over the six months of our contract, we'll get them booked on a certain number of shows. And for us, that works really, really, really well. Because I think there's a lot of people out there that have maybe worked with a PR agency in the past and been burned or felt like it didn't really live up to their expectations. And so for me, I'm able to say like, we're gonna make this happen. You know, if for some reason podcast interview doesn't go through, we're gonna make sure you get booked on another one. So we just take that very seriously. And I think that's why we have so many happy clients to continue on with us because the expectation is set and met and oftentimes exceeded.

Heather Sager:

Yeah, okay. And I love that you said, getting people on aligned podcasts? Yes. Comcast, oh, my gosh, this is gonna be the episode I have ever done. I am. I'm excited. This is gonna be ready. You're ready, like audio are? Oh, yeah. Okay, so talking about what you mean by a live podcast?

Unknown:

Yeah, what I mean by that is, we're really looking more at the quality of the audience, as opposed to the size of the audience. And I think that this is really important for people to to kind of get their head around a little bit. I kind of like to give this example. But sometimes someone might hear, Oh, well, why would I want to go on a show that only has like, 100 downloads a week or something like that, you know, and for me, I'm like, if that's full of my ideal customer, you better believe that I want to get on a show with 100 100 people. If someone were to call me up and be like, hey, Christina, you want to come speak at this event? It's going to be 100 of your ideal customers in a room, I'd be booking that flight, getting that hotel room like I would take that opportunity, no question asked. So what I'm looking for when we book our clients, his shows that are full of their ideal customer, we get really into their ideal customer before we kick off with our pitching. So I'm going to find out who exactly that is. Because I'd rather get them on a smaller show full of those people as opposed to a giant show of people that don't give a crap what you have to say.

Heather Sager:

Yeah, where it's almost like that No, no dig at the bigger shows because it is it is fast. Oh listen to a lot of them, where they it's fascinating her things through but it's like a there's so many guests cycling through that it's almost like it's just like a passive learning thing. In my perspective, it's very rare that I go follow someone or take action. Unless it's it maybe it's like an author with a book. Maybe I then go download the book. I'm not sure but I do see a very different high relationship around how I take action when I'm listening to guests on bigger shows versus guests on smaller shows. So can we talk a little bit about that because there is this poll. And you know, I talk about this a lot this idea of I want to be popular online and we kind of forget profitability conversation. Can you talk about how people and I would imagine your clients start like this? They get swept up in the idea of get me on as many big podcasts as possible. They probably have like their dream lists, which have like the big top 10 on

Unknown:

them. Yeah, yeah. So I hopped on a discovery call with anyone before we decided to work together to move forward and a big red flag for me to be honest with you on someone's like, you know, I don't know just like maybe just get on like Joe Rogan or something. Wait, what? Hold the phone. Wait, what and, and all they're thinking of in that term is a term of size of audience in their mind. they see that as like, well that's the biggest show. So that's the show that I want to get on. Not this isn't talking about whether I personally like or dislike Joe Rogan has nothing to do with that. It's just a matter of is that really who your ideal person is that you're trying to get in front operator who sells online decorating? Yeah, exactly. Like I'm like, I don't think Joe's the right avenue. So, you know, we kind of will talk about that. Absolutely. Starting small is a good thing. When it comes to guesting on podcast small but aligned. And the reason for that is a the people that listen to those hosts, they trust that host. They are like this is someone that what they say and who they bring on their show, I'm going to take a second and listen to them because I believe what this person has to say. So that's a big part of it. And you know, I just I think that there's just multiple reasons, really, but you want to start small also, because you're the master at this, but you get your messaging down, you get to go on a few shows you really get more comfortable talking about your story, what that core messages, and you're gonna make some mistakes, and that's okay. But if those are on some smaller shows, then you feel a little bit more competent when you might get up to some of those bigger shows.

Heather Sager:

Yeah, I totally agree with this inside. So you get to level up we talk about this is like the one time I use a sports reference. But I talked about categorizing your pitching opportunities into layup shots versus like two pointers versus three pointers. And then there's like the Hail Mary like full core, the countdown timer. Yeah, point one seconds and you just love it. But I think most people when we talk about the idea of like, what stages do you want to be on our podcast, people throw out especially in our niche space with women in the online coaching or digital course creator space. People are like the gold digger podcast. That's everyone. I have a gold digger Porterfield podcast, which I did love both those shows they're all the same. But it's the idea of if you only have those, quite frankly, full court shots, right? When you think about where we are in business to booking on that, if you only have that it's going to feel pretty deflating. If you can't make any progress booking that. And if you get other shows that are maybe much smaller in comparison, you might feel like I'm not making progress to the big dream. So we talk about when you have your list of stages that you want to get on it really focus it down more on some layups to get that confidence and be like, All right, I may have rambled my way through that. But I have it and you get all that press down, you find your messaging, you figure out your groove, you get your nerves out, so that when that time comes, you're more ready. So yes, we're like fully aligned in that in that way of thinking. Boo. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, one of the things that you said I'm going to try to keep my I wrote a note down here. We use it something around what's awesome on the small shows people really listen. It got me thinking about something around how and I don't I don't know if I'm, I'm normal in this way. Or maybe I'm not.

Unknown:

Well, now I'm intrigued. Okay, go Oh,

Heather Sager:

yeah, I used to listen to podcast a lot before the pandemic. Because I found myself in the car driving more and more free time away from my children, I had more protected time. And since the pandemic, I like I had to change on my routines. I didn't have time for podcasts. And what's fascinating, even though my kids have gone back to school and daycare, I have not added podcasts back into my routine, I've actually added audio books. So I noticed that my listening had my listening relationship of what I do is changed. When you said that people have a really high they trust the person they're listening to. I just really spoke to me because I used to follow and quote unquote, subscribe to a lot of podcasts. I do not anymore, I went and unstarted unsubscribe to a lot and the ones that I actually follow or subscribe to whatever the term is these days. I own I don't venture out and they're smaller shows that I really really listened to so I don't know have you found that to be like true of other people that that that people are just a little bit more disciplined with their time? Well,

Unknown:

it's interesting because I'm like you I mean I I was listening to a lot of podcasts the pandemic hit like I have small child you know, stuff like that. So everything got kind of pushed to the backburner other than the fact that I did this for my job. So you know, I was listening to some you know, but But it wasn't like I was listening to a whole lot for pleasure. Yeah. And I find grateful like I love you guys. A true crime prog if you know any good true crap are gonna send my way I love my love my love. But, you know, I wasn't doing as much for pleasure because to your point, I wasn't driving like I'm not taking you know, I'm not going on a trip to go do this right or driving or even flying to go somewhere, right like to go to an event or something like that, that I might otherwise have listened to a podcast during, um, so I was to listen to him for work, but now that I'm finally back in the swing of like, taking people to school and doing stuff like that. I am starting to listen to them. Then again, the stats tell us that more people are listening to podcasts now than pre pandemic. Yeah. But I don't necessarily know if that means. And I don't I don't I just don't know the stat, the stat on this, whether it's just more people, but maybe less shows, as opposed to maybe like URI that might use to listen to 10 a week or something like that. We're now so move. We're now listening to five. But there's someone else out there. That's that wasn't listening before. That's listening to five now. Yeah. So it's kind of making up for that, you know, that kind of loss that we've had. But there's been more gains.

Heather Sager:

Yeah. So yeah, it's a fascinating thing to think about the types of shows like I think for me, when I when I actually think about what's on my list right now, I think the difference for me is I actually no longer listen to the quote unquote, big shows. i They're just not on my rotation anymore. I actually now anytime I'm on a podcast, it's for the smaller shows, unless one of the bigger shows caught my attention with a title or something, right. But so anyways, it's all of it was just kind of proving your point back to those niche align podcast, have your ideal person who's most likely willing to download your freebie or follow you online or take action? So

Unknown:

maybe, or, you know, maybe they follow your podcasts? And then they join your signature program?

Heather Sager:

Yeah, like i Oh, my Yeah, talk about a dream customer journey.

Unknown:

I'm just I'm just saying that it happens. I mean, I can think of a few instances where people that I found their podcasts, and I just really liked them, I went and bought, I ended up purchasing from them, like bigger ticket items, you know, then just maybe if I'd found them through an ad and got like a $27. Small offer, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just saying that this was a different avenue. And it led me to be a much warmer lead.

Heather Sager:

Yeah, I agree with that. I think the warmer leads, they, they participate in the learning slash funnel. For like, I think about if I see it, here's what's funny, if I've ever bought something which I have for the 3727, whatever dollar price, yeah, me too. I bought those. And when I think about it, I think I initially open it and get excited about it, that I never go back. But someone that I have listened to their podcast, and I understand how they approached marketing or whatever it is the thing I'm learning from them, I'm learning from them more than just that, like tiny offer or whatever else that I bought, and learning soaking up in other ways. And I'm way more likely to engage or circle back to that thing that I bought. It's just a, it's a different relationship. So this opens up the door. And you and I were chatting on this before we before we hit record, that I think a lot of people think ooh, podcast, more eyeballs, like, I want to drive people to my website, or I want to get leads from this. But there are a lot of different benefits that we really should be thinking about that podcast opened the door on. So would you to start hitting on some of those because I know there's like there's like a whole list of things.

Unknown:

Absolutely. You know, in the past year alone, we've gotten our clients booked over 150 shows and before I even start working with a client, we talk about the things that you know, may happen and this or that one thing I say to every single one of them is like there's stuff that's going to happen that I can't predict something really cool, some opportunity is going to come your way that I can't even say like this could happen like you're gonna write me, you're gonna send me an excited Voxer and I love getting these by the way, that's like you will never believe who just reached out to me about doing XYZ. And so what I mean by that is we've had things like job offers come through book offers come through. We have one of our clients who I know is a good friend of yours and mine, Liz Wilcox, who was able to retire her one on one services, and just go strictly to digital and the only marketing that she does is podcasts is guesting on podcasts. I mean, she's in summits and stuff like that, too. But my point is she doesn't put money in ADS. She doesn't do other type of what would be considered like traditional marketing, this is it. We've seen those things happen, not to mention the multiple, numerous opportunities to speak in masterclasses to speak at summits, to just have these like affiliate partnerships and partnerships with the hosts that you're working with. I mean, really, I could go on and on and on. But there's all types of things that go beyond just list building that you're going to see as a benefit from being a guest on

Heather Sager:

shows. Yes, I think this is so important because I I've used this terminology before. I think a lot of people are way too short sighted when it comes to podcast interviews. And I

Unknown:

Okay, this is I agree. I agree. Yes, I am going to say something

Heather Sager:

which is probably gonna get me in trouble, which means I need to say it. Okay. When I think about when I think about guests on my show, in my mind when I walk away from an interview, and I have a guest on the show with we've had many amazing guests on this show. But I know indefinitely. Was this a one night stand guest or is this going to be a guest that we continue some kind of relationship with? Yeah, black night what I mean by that If it was an effort, like it was, it was nice interview, right? But I don't feel like I really clicked or that we really aligned or that it was it was a mutually beneficial thing when I feel like someone is outwardly like really pushing their stuff, and I've been used to things that we all we all fear, right? That's what I consider a one night stand and host can feel that. Yeah, I'm sharing these things super embarrassing to tell you my inner workings that I know, I probably have issues. I need to work through them. But whatever.

Unknown:

I like that analogy, though. I will say I've never thought of it that way. And I and I think it's really clear.

Heather Sager:

Yeah, I think here's the thing. I have no issue with a one night stand interview. As long as I'm clear walking away. Okay, cool. That was a great one night, Stan, I have no problem with that, like, I'm gonna have that's totally fine. But the thing is, I think people what we don't realize is there's so much potential in a business relationship by looking at these opportunities to go further. Yeah. And what you said, thinking about affiliate partnerships, thinking about referral relationships, I can't tell you how many times I've been on a podcast, where I have knock the socks off of the host, who they didn't know who I was when I got on there. But after we had the conversation, they're like, holy crap monkey, like you did. Yeah, you did. Yeah. Right. And and now that they've experienced the Sager factor, that yeah, they're like, what you come speak to my mastermind. And in the mastermind, are people who are paying high ticket dollars, who will then pay the high ticket to work one on one, or they'll be like, Oh, my gosh, you need to talk to this other person, or so what you have to think about is a podcast interview, a lot of times it's an audition, to a much bigger opportunity. But what we can't do is be like, what's the end game? Who like, how are they going to serve me? How are they going to like, where am I going to get the ROI? It's no, how do you show up and serve at your best and trust, like that leap of faith that the relationship will work out, and each of you will want to support and benefits? I love

Unknown:

everything you just said, I know y'all can see that we're just listening in. But I was pointing at Heather, because I fully agree with what she's saying. And I think that this is the one of the biggest opportunities missed by people is that relationship with the host, and what I think and how you are the you have the best chance of being successful in that relationship, besides having your natural connection, when you have a conversation, is to go at it from a place of gratitude. Like as a guest, you guys putting on a podcast like this work that Heather does or that these other people that you listen to, it took a lot of work, it is a lot of time, it is a lot of effort for them to put out a podcast, especially a quality one. And so when someone takes the time to have me as a guest, like, of course, I'm going to bring value to their audience. And you know, I'm going to share it with my audience. So it's going to help expand, there's etc, etc. But when I at the end of every interview, I I'll definitely do it. But when Heather and I clicked, you know, and on zoom here, I say, How can I support you? How can I help you? And that is where I've done it. I'm making a list, Christina. Yeah, make a list, make a list. I'm ready. And without expecting anything in return. Like when I reach out like I just did this with I was just on Gina on a tibias course creation incubator podcast a few weeks back, and we did an Instagram live yesterday, where we went live and talked about the episode went in a little bit deeper, etc, etc. And to me, that's such an amazing thing that I can do for the host. It's so simple for me to help the host out in that way. Get on there ask questions that her audience is asking XYZ Of course, it's great for me to I'm getting out in front of new people, but I'm also giving her more content that she can share and use across her channels. Now I've also had people like Heather just said you do an interview, and then they're like, Hey, I love that when you come in and teach a master class, will you come in and do XYZ? Um, heck yeah, I will. Like let's figure out, you know, when we want to do that. So I think that that relationship with the host is such a big thing that a lot of people are just like, Okay, great. We're done. And they hit end on Zoom. And it's like, you're really missing out on like, what one of the best parts about being a podcast guest is

Heather Sager:

Yeah, and I and I've experienced that on the other end too as the guest where I have hit and on Zoom. And I've had that feeling of okay, that was a nice one nightstand, it was good. I hope the episode does well for them. That's great. But that's and I think the thing is like, it's okay, those are going to happen, especially if you're showing up a lot. But when you find that person you jive with with like, as you said, that aligned audience and it just flows, you figure out how to work together. A great example of this. We have Luis on the show. Hi. Oh, gosh.

Unknown:

Oh, I'm sorry. Our client Louis Yeah, amazing.

Heather Sager:

Phenomenal there with techy. I fell in love with him immediately. Well, you can't not I can't not a nominal gracious guests we've had and from that him and I have had many conversations of helping to figure out How we can do that? What video asked is what we talked about on that episode? How can we incorporate that into my program and into my top end funnel? We haven't done anything with it yet, but we check in every couple months. And I just see that it's just such a beautiful relationship. Same thing with your mere coffin, you guys brought her yes to the show, we had a phenomenal conversation around bringing your personality into your brand. And she and I have touched base multiple times about her potentially coming in to do a mini training in my program. Like there's been so high just high five to you. Good job.

Unknown:

Yeah. Pitching myself over here in my office. Yes,

Heather Sager:

I love but I love this idea. And I hope this really gets people thinking around when you start thinking about visibility and getting yourself out in front of things. It's not this just checklist where you fire like, as wide as possible. These this spray and pray. It's it's like how do you go more focused on those aligned audiences? And then go deeper. But the big question is, and I know you get this one a lot is okay, I hear you. But like, how do I find the aligned podcasts? Like, how do I even go about finding podcasts? Because it seems very, very overwhelming. And I know you have a really specific way that you go about this. So can you share a little bit about that?

Unknown:

I do and assure well, so

Heather Sager:

give us the secret goods, y'all.

Unknown:

Here I am guys. Yeah, um, this actually isn't something that I share publicly, very often. But I do think that it's a really, really great framework for people, or a really great strategy, I should say, and what it's called as my podcast piggyback method. And so when people are starting to do their research, this is how I recommend they do it, go into Apple to iTunes, or, you know, Spotify, whatever it is that you whatever player you like to use. And what I do is I put in the name of a competitor. Now it doesn't need to be someone like, I feel like the name competitor makes it feel like, oh, we have beef or something like that, like not at all. All I mean by that is someone that has a similar ideal customer, like we're gonna like this, like we're gonna image of American Gladiators like back from the 90s. And I'm like, yes. Could

Heather Sager:

we create some graphic around this? I

Unknown:

like that you did that because I thought more West Side Story sharks versus jets, like we're somehow meeting and like a dark alleyway, but then we dance like, I don't know what's happening, no.

Heather Sager:

Steam sticks, and they're like, Okay,

Unknown:

I'm gonna get on that podcast. No, you're gonna Yeah. So what I'll do is all I'll find someone like this, for example, me, I think about someone that has a similar ideal customer to me. Okay, so who has a similar ideal customer to me, I'm going to drop their name into Apple podcast, and I'm going to see what shows they've been on. And this is the source of two different avenues that I'll take in pitching one is I look at the shows that they've been on. And I'm like, awesome. These are all shows that have interest in whatever it is that we both speak on. So what I'll do is when I pitch that show, and I'll pitch them, I point out that they've already had so and so on, I loved the episode about XYZ. And what I'd love to do is take their listeners to the next level. So hey, you had so and so on, they talked about why podcasting is important. I loved it, I really liked what you guys had to say about XYZ, what I would love to do is come on and talk to your audience about how they can be the best guest how they can utilize that content after the podcast, whatever it is, I can talk about that. But I'm pointing out that hey, I've paid attention. I know you already have someone on talking about this. So I'm not going to pitch you on the same thing. But here's some things that I think we could continue that conversation with you guys. I'll tell you right now that strategy, gangbusters, like they know that you've done the research, and that you're pitching them on something that their audience hasn't heard before. So that's a great strategy. But what you can also do is scroll down to the bottom of Apple podcasts. And it's going to say you might also like, so it's going to be shows that are similar and anyone that's been to Apple podcasts is probably seeing this, but it's going to be shows that are similar to that show that your competitor has been on. Alright. And so what I'll do is I'll start going through those shows that that I've also you know, that is that are similar, and I'll start looking at those and saying Does this seem like a good fit? Does this seem like a good fit? And I'll pick up I mean, you could easily get 1015 shows something like that, from that you might also like tagged down there at the bottom, and again, then I know that they're kind of what Sorry,

Heather Sager:

I'm gonna get some examples of that roll roll to mine on the heather Sager show. Looking down, I just noticed that my show is rated clean, which is mostly mostly you might also like number one, online marketing made easy with Amy Porterfield, number two gold digger podcast number three Boss Babes. Build your tribe with Charlene and Brock Johnson. Yep, Kathy Heller's. Don't keep her day job. Carrie green she means business. The Rachel Hollis podcast. Chillin prosper with Denise Duffield. Let's see here. Simple pin podcast with Kate all I haven't so that must be smashed. I haven't heard of her yet. The Brendon show Everybody please go after party for charts show he doesn't even have guests. Yeah.

Unknown:

Mike is actually gonna say that about Denise Duffield Thomas Thomas isn't yours.

Heather Sager:

But can I I'm just gonna actually go off on a slight tangent here real quick. I want to tell you all this is a very weird tangent. But I'm gonna share with you going down at this. I haven't looked at this for my show in a very long time. But I'm having a moment of huge pride with this list. Because let me tell you, I haven't shared this on the show. But when I started my podcast, y'all, so many of you know that I left a corporate company as a corporate executive. And the company that I left the CEO went on to create another very large company called CARDONE ventures he partnered with Grant Cardone, he has a very, very large brand. And the people at my old company, when I first started my online business, and therefore my podcast, most the people who were following me were either old clients, or former co workers wondering what the FBI was doing. And were like, Oh, my gosh, these people are still trying to figure out what the eff I'm doing. Am I gonna fail? Yeah. So every time I'll tell you, every time I looked at the bottom of that thing, it was people from the audiology space, which was the old industry I worked in, and it was people who like it was there other podcasts and other brands they have. And I will tell you, for over a year, friends over a year, that just like list, it was always people from my old life. And it really got in my head because I'm like, Who the eff is even listening, that's my ideal customer. It was all the other people waiting for me to fail, or just maybe they were supporting me, who knows it's not the story had in my head. But I started looking at that. And it really, really messed with me. And same thing, when I would look at my podcast downloads, I would see people from Vancouver, Washington, which is where that where my old company was. So I knew it was former coworkers. I'm sharing this very off tangent here, because we there is this thing that happens is when it takes a very long time for your podcast to grow for you to kind of get that reference point. But I'm just having a moment here. Because to look at your list and see it filled with online marketing space, spit a no no representation of anything from my old life, or from my old colleagues. That's freaking huge. Like, that just makes me very proud to think about it. But I I don't know why I felt compelled to share that. But I think I'm glad you did. I think it's awesome. I think everyone has their own story about I just this week, I saw somebody posted a speaker to level up how frustrating it is that the only person who's posted on their stuff is their mother in law, and how freaking annoying it is our sweet mother in laws who tried to help us but they're not very helpful. Anyways, for any of you listening right now that are starting small, and it doesn't feel like anybody is watching. They are and they will be yes for can keep going. Just frickin Yeah,

Unknown:

I love that. And I think that just to go off, something you just said is, that's where these smaller podcasts to, like, that's kind of, I found a lot of times how they work, like, you'll be on this interview, you know, you'll do this podcast interview on a smaller show that again, full of your ideal customer, but you know, they don't have big huge numbers or anything like that you don't really see a big bump to your list or anything like that. But what will happen and this happens, like all the time is suddenly though, you'll just get an email out of the blue from someone that's like, Oh, I heard you on so and so's podcast like three months ago. And I you know, like I've just been thinking about how I needed to reach out to you and yeah, so now how can I book a discovery call? And that is like the type of thing that I feel like happens a lot as opposed to like people just trying to get your freebie. This and that. It's people that are more so like, oh, yeah, I heard you and I've been thinking about you or I've been listening to you more and now I'm ready to like move forward, basically. Yeah.

Heather Sager:

Oh my gosh, I love that. Okay, so I or any other tips around finding shows?

Unknown:

Well, that's yeah, I mean, I gave kind of that podcast piggyback method and really it's just piggybacking off what your competitors have have already been on because

Heather Sager:

now so many rabbit holes like that's like an ever when those lists change, right but that like thinking about what its competitors last you find the shell scroll down to the show find like shows that could take you down a whole laundry list, finding big shows, little shows,

Unknown:

I don't want to I'll just say I have to set an alarm for myself when I do research because I will for hours go down that rabbit hole. So I typically have to be like, Okay, you get one hour right now it's like look at all these shows. Yeah, um,

Heather Sager:

you you and your team do such a phenomenal job with pitching. We're not going to go down with all the how to pitch cheat and stuff. I know you have some really great resource for that we've talked about on the show before. But you you and I did we did a VIP day together where I brought you know, I teach pitching and we do pitching and to be perfectly honest, I we were laughing because I shared this with you. I haven't had to do much pitching at all and by business that most of my PR has been people requesting me to be on their platforms, which is amazing. It is amazing and I'm like wow that's pretty awesome. And so bye guys. Don't rely on that don't rely. But that is that is the when you are magnetic baby like it's true like that is

Unknown:

oh she made So good point. Yes,

Heather Sager:

there we go. So but the you came in hive and we spent an entire day you work with Dorothy on my team, and he helped me get our some of our resources like dialed in. Can you we don't have to go into all the details. But can you share like your best one or two tips for someone who is either actively pitching and not getting great results? Or thinking about doing some pitching this next year? What are like some best pieces of advice you would give them?

Unknown:

Yeah, definitely, I would say a couple pieces of advice. First and foremost is what I really recommend is batching. Your pitching. So I batch my pitching. Like for myself, like I just last Friday had a Christina pitch day. So I blocked off my whole day. And I spent that whole day pitching. And the reason that I think this is helpful for people is if you just think you're going to do one or two pitches, like if you're like, Yeah, well, maybe I'll just spend like an hour a week and send pitches today, you won't do it, it's really, really easy to put pitch in your back burner. Because just like Heather spoke about in the beginning, you tend to other stuff comes up or you know, you have other things that are going on. But if you can set aside a full amount of time, really get in the zone. And it also gets your creative juices flowing to where you can be thinking about, you know how you might want to pitch a certain hosts and XYZ, I recommend that. But the real reason that I recommend batching is because then I can batch my follow ups. And y'all being able to batch your follow ups is a huge, huge deal. Because I would say over half of the shows that we book are booked in the follow ups. So it is so so so important for you to be sending that follow up message and I think by batching your original pitches, you're going to if you know like Okay, two weeks later, I'm going to send a follow up and I'm just going to do them for all of them all at the same time. You know, XYZ, you're not missing out on following up, which I think a lot of people make that mistake doing.

Heather Sager:

I cannot agree more with that. And I think about when I think about the pitches your team has sent me. It's what's interesting, right? And you guys do a really good job of doing it through direct messages. And like a combo. Yes,

Unknown:

we do that too. Yes. I was actually gonna I'll talk about that, too. Yeah,

Heather Sager:

I love that. But what I what I want to say on that is, I don't know, I think a lot of we forget how we behave in our inbox. And we expect other people to behave in a different way. And what I mean by that we don't want to be annoying. We don't want to send multiple emails, like how annoying would we be? But think about this. I don't know, this might backfire at me. But where's the number one place that you check your email from? Christina? My phone? You okay, me too. I was gonna say, oh my gosh, I'm dialed in. And you do it from your computer? Because I know, most of what I've talked about that I dream would be to only do it my desktop, but I don't I don't really work for my desktop much unless I have called Yes. So think about when you're checking randomly. It's usually we're hiding from our children in the pantry. We're just kind of getting an email or looking at our DMS we get something Oh, yeah, I'm gonna come back to that. Do we ever come back to it? No, no, I to the point old corporate team, I used to have this thing I was like, I see it and putting the baton back in your hand, it's your responsibility. If you haven't heard back from me in three days circle back to me. That was my system, I don't encourage it. I rely on follow up for me to pay attention to things that I know are important. So I love and appreciate the follow up. Now, I don't love it appreciate the follow up from really bad pitchers who are like non personalized. I love it. They

send you an email at 6:

43am. And then at 8:23am They're like, I haven't heard back from you at this time. And I'm so sad. I want to punch them in the throat. Yeah,

Unknown:

I got it. And I was 100% You don't wanna be falling up every day, like the day after you send your pitch a few weeks later will be just fine. Yeah.

Heather Sager:

So can you just talk a little bit about that slash DMS, like whatever comes to your, your heart or your mind right now?

Unknown:

Yeah, so um, when we pitch we send and I highly recommend sending your full pitch via email. Because it's going to be a few paragraphs long. Like it's, you know, it's not something that's just like two sentences, right? Like, you're going to be writing out some topic ideas and stuff like that side note, you need to send topic ideas. I always kind of harp on this a little bit. But I know that podcast hosts and I bet Heather, this has happened to you. They get a lot of, of emails where I think people think they're trying to make it easier for the host by saying like, here's what I can talk about. And they just like bullet out like three or four different, you know, like marketing, branding, you know, whatever. And, and I think in their mind, they're like, Oh, I'm making it so easy for them. They can just say like, what do we what should we talk about? No, you know, you need to come with solid topic ideas that their audience is going to be interested in. And just you don't even just send two or three. It's not like you have to send this whole laundry list of stuff. But nine out of 10 9.9 times out of 10 a host is just going to choose one of the topic ideas that we've given them and it's making it a much easier Yes. Yeah, for them. They They don't have to think about it, of course, they're going to flesh out the idea. If they want to ask them questions like, obviously, that's all great. But it's not, we're not putting that extra work in their hand. So anyways, we send the email, it has those topic ideas on there. And then what we do is within a day, so either the day or the next day, we will send that host, a little quick note via DM, Instagram DM, letting them know that we sent a pitch over. And so we just give a little heads up, like, hey, Heather, just wanted to let you know that I just sent over a pitch for my client, and I'll actually tag them like their Instagram page in the message so that the person can go and look at it real quick. You know, I think it'd be a great fit for their show, I might give a reason why. And then what we do is we, we actually send a little graphic, so we create this little graphic for all of our clients that's just like the size of an Instagram post. So it's nothing big. And it's literally just like, here's a couple places they've been featured on and a couple words about them. And but it's very graphically appealing. It's very simple, it's clean for people to look at. So we just send that note and then they send, we just send this little graphic. And that works really, really well for us. A lot of people have people that are gatekeeping, their email, which is totally fair, but they don't typically have someone gatekeeping, their DMS. So between the two will usually get in front of a host. And what's interesting with the DMS is we will have hosts that are like, Hey, that looks super interesting. I'm going to have so and so forward that along to me, or what happens even more often, as they said, Can you send that to me directly at and they give us their personal email address. So really, it's all about getting in front of them. And we're just trying to do that in two way or just going down two avenues. But we're not sending them a huge pitch in the DMS. We're not you know, badgering them about it or anything like that. It's just like, hey, heads up, we sent this over, you know, let me know if you want to know more.

Heather Sager:

Yeah, I love that. And I love that. What's what's awesome is it's not a cold turkey thing. That was one of the things that I respect it and love most about the DM approach is it wasn't waiting for me. Y'all imaginary Instagram right now, if you get message requests, which means right send you messages that you don't follow, or that you've never chatted with before I get a lot of message requests, I'll look at them, but a lot of them are people offering me to be informed for $5,000 or Yeah. 1000 followers on Instagram, which who needs to buy like anymore? It doesn't do anything. Anyways. Yeah, the the point is, you guys aren't just like ghosting or just like swooping in to be like, here's this thing, you actually follow that person and engage with that person and you establish a relationship before that DM ever comes. And I just think it just shows back to the whole point around this right is we're focused on a relate B and building a relationship. But even as somebody in a pitching process, or even if you use an agency, like publicity by Christina, they also focus on the relationship. It has that through line all the way through. That works. But that relationship is about building relationships, which is amazing. I just love you guys do such good work. I pulled up here, because you were mentioning the specificity of the topics. I was like, Oh my gosh, the topics that you wrote, for me were so damn fire. Yay. Because we've had so many requests coming in. I still haven't had to use this yet. We will start using this as soon as Dorothy comes back from maternity leave. But one here's an example. Instead of just being like Heather can talk about how being a guest on shows no young grow title on here, how to promote your call to a call to action in a non techie way. And then there's a description with that. I'm like, oh, yeah, that I read that as a host. Like that sounds really interesting. Another one don't want to be an influencer too late. Like, okay, what

Unknown:

should I do remember that one, I was really proud. I love that.

Heather Sager:

And then this one here, which is my signature topic, he rewrote it for me. What is the magnetic effect? And how can you use it to attract your customers? These are examples of really specific language that I want. I'm just so I, I teach this y'all like I teach people how to craft their signature talk, what they're going to talk about on a stage and or a podcast. But doing it for myself is so damn hard. As hard, man. I think for everyone, we need that outside perspective. So you've done such a bang up job on this. This is what you do professionally. You do it for people, but you also teach people how to do it. Can you share a little bit more about that? Cuz I know you have an awesome workshop on it. And you have an event coming up, right?

Unknown:

Yes. So I'm only teaching this one time this year. And that's on February 10 2022. I'm going to do my Hey, bitch. Let's pitch live workshop training. Yes, that's the name of it. That's my sense of humor. It makes me giggle every time

Heather Sager:

my Christina and I get along so

Unknown:

Exactly. Like I'm like, Hey, babe.

Heather Sager:

Remember side? No, I remember when you and I went to brunch in Portland. Yes. Yeah. And we were just Adding about the name of the workshop over laughing like yes, it has. It has Yes.

Unknown:

It has to be it must be it must be a, you know came up with that name Luis. Yeah, it's okay with that name when we were originally doing it. And I was like, Yeah, genius. Let me buy that you are. And so yeah, we have this live training coming up, it's going to be this is not like a high level, let's talk about what podcasts could do in your business. This is like a, okay, we're gonna we're gonna do the dang thing like, Alright, let's talk about how we write our pitch template and get to have solid examples. What should be included in there brainstorming on topic ideas, I'm going to be there live. So let's talk through topic ideas. I love brainstorming. That's one of my favorite things to do. I'm a full Enneagram seven, like all the way you guys so I'm all about like, let's let's get in there. Let's think about ideas. Think about different things. Like, just like Heather was saying, how are you going to position it right? Like, yeah, you could just say like, yeah, I can talk about social media. It's like, okay, well, how can we make that a little bit more interesting or a little bit more intriguing, you know, type of thing. So we're gonna get in there about that. We're gonna talk more about research. We're just gonna really get into like, what is your pitch actually look like? Because I think one of the biggest things that holds people back, is them just under not understanding what it should look like, at the end of the day, like, what exactly should this be? And so I want you to feel comfortable, I want you to feel confident people have all these goals of like, I want to be on X amount of shows in 2022. That's wonderful. But that all starts from sending a pitch.

Heather Sager:

That's great. I love it. And so where can they find out more details about that sassy workshop girl,

Unknown:

that sassy workshop that we have coming up, you can actually go to a bitch, Let's pitch comm. We have it there. And then if you want to hear about some of the other options that we have, I also have a free fun quiz through video asked that you guys are talking about at podcast publicity, quiz calm. And that'll kind of put you on the right route. You know, like is a VIP day make the most sense does having our team do it for you make the most sense, or doing it yourself. So that can kind of put you in put you in the right area.

Heather Sager:

And I feel super, super unfortunate because I was able to tap you on the shoulder and ask a big favor. And Christina for all of our speak up to level up members. Christina, she's one of our featured coaches inside pitch fest, which is excitedly for speak up to level up members. When this airs, it'll be the Friday of it. So this Friday, okay, no, that's a lie when this airs, it'll be the Friday before. So it'll actually already have happened. But what were you event we're doing inside speak up to level up, which is a one day event where we're doing a co working session, which is a version of this is how do we actually get the action of pitching, identify the topics? How do we get the like the stage list going for both podcasts and also other stages, and then put together the actual media kit that people not that like big giant when people think Penny the one they actually need to get moving. So Christina is going to be managing one of our breakout rooms and doing this like real time coaching with people. So I feel like I feel like I should probably pay you for being there.

Unknown:

I'm excited to be there be with my fellow Zulu cohort. And, you know, this is this is how we all learn. So it's I'm excited. And I mean, I learned from other people all the time. So we have such a generous community in there with people with all different skill sets. We

Heather Sager:

had Milan as I mentioned, he was on the show. He's phenomenal video and market and he pinched it for me last week on the podcast like just community. So just shout out y'all, by the way, the speaking are coming in are coming. Yes, they're fine. It's gonna be a three part workshop series where I'm teaching live on Zoom and in a private pop up Facebook group, where I'm going to help you start building the confidence to get on these kinds of stages next year, but more specifically, how do you become the kind of speaker that eight tracks those kinds of relationships, how you get people going, Holy crap, you are amazing. How do I work with you? Or how do I get you in front of my people is one part to get there, but you have to own that stage when you get there and that's what we're going to be talking about in the speaking workshops. So if you haven't actually joined the waitlist for that head on over to Heather Sager comm forward slash speaking workshops, we'll have links to everything we talked about today including, hey, bitch, Let's pitch including the quiz Christina talked about a lot of I'm kind of breaking all the rules with all the call to actions but this was such a phenomenal real and raw conversation today Chris Thank

Unknown:

you. I love it.

Heather Sager:

I we went on so many rabbit holes but they did and I love for it.

Unknown:

I'm all for it. I'm like yes, like let's talk about this looks like Oh, this looks like oh this like I I'm just excited for people to also be excited about pitching to

Heather Sager:

Yeah, it's not it can be an intimidating thing. But I think it can be really really fun thing. So without any parting words of encouragement to people who maybe have a little bit of fear around pitching they're on the edge they know they need to do it but they haven't for any reason.

Unknown:

Yes, a big thing that I like to say and I have it written above me at my in my office too is like service over self promotion is how you should look at being a guest on podcast and For a lot of people that helps them to think about how they're not going on to just talk about themselves, they're going on to talk about whatever it is that they're an expert in. So that's something that I want you to remember is people want to listen to you. They want to hear your expertise, what you have to talk about. And it's not just like, I didn't sit here for 60 minutes and just talk about me. You know, we're talking about what it is that I happen to be an expert in. And so I think that I think that that's really good for people to hear that are usually feeling a little bit nervous about it.

Heather Sager:

Yeah, okay. That is amazing. Y'all be sure to post a screenshot of today's episode if you liked some of the funny tangents slash very valuable advice Christina gave. Be sure to tag us both her Instagram handle as publicity X Christina so you can find it I'll link to that in the show notes too. Christina, I always love talking to you. You know your brother loved talking to you every time we chat. I just love it so much. So I am so glad that people got to hear directly from you today, y'all. Thanks for bearing with me and my crazy foggy brain although I like I think it added a little something extra today did it not?

Unknown:

I you there are a couple things when I listen to the episode again that I'm just gonna laugh about and I'm excited for it. Plus, I mean, I think I think we had a great conversation so it's real life real life is where you mess up on some words sometimes Yeah,

Heather Sager:

amen to that. Well, Christina, I will see you live next week when we do yes. And y'all want to hear this be sure to reach out on Instagram and tell us how you love the episode. And I'm just so excited that the next few weeks y'all we are going to have some amazing content on the show. And I can already tell you it's probably going to be hilarious because this foggy brain I imagined it's not going anywhere. So your for some entertaining episodes. For a treat, y'all Yeah, yep for a Sager treat. So we'll see y'all next time, same place.

Unknown:

Bye Bye