How a Phone Call Changed Everything: Building a 8 Figure Business with James Wedmore

In this week's episode, I asked my Business Coach, James Wedmore, to share the real behind-the-scenes stories of building an 8 figure online business.

James has been teaching ambitious online entrepreneurs how to skyrocket their businesses for the past 15 years—and doing it himself for even longer (you’ll hear how he really got started in business inside the interview) 

We explore parts of James’s story that he rarely talks about publicly, geek out of communication and how to show up more effectively as an online brand, plus dig into…

• The bomb he dropped in the first 30 seconds of the interview that SHOCKED me about his past
• A specific, tactical activity you can do TODAY to kickstart your breakthrough
• Why we should stop referencing impostor syndrome (and how to view it instead)
• The two core things all entrepreneurs need beyond strategy 
• The #1 mistake business owners make that keeps them on the content creation hamster wheel (and how to fix it)!

This one is packed with inspiration, insight and is damn entertaining. So if you’re not making the progress or impact you desire, this will be the fire to get you moving.

 EPISODE  SHOW NOTES👇

➡️ https://heathersager.com/episode151/

Transcript

Heather Sager:

Well, hey friend, I hope your week is off to a great start. Welcome back to another episode. We've got a good one for you today because I have my coach and friend James Wedmore on the show. We're sitting down virtually. I mean, we're, we're in a zoom room chatting about so many things today. Oh my gosh. Talk about, here's like a joke for you. Two long-winded storytelling business coaches walk into a zoom room. Five hours later, you get the most amazing podcast episode. Don't worry. It's not actually five hours, but oh, you are in for a treat today. Let me, let me set the scene here. So if you're not familiar with James Wedmore, most likely if you've been listening to the show, you've heard me talking about him or referring to my coach over these last few weeks.

I came across his work, three, four years ago when he was introduced to me by one of my mentors that I follow online. So similar to maybe if you follow along with me and my work, maybe I am introducing you to James Wedmore. That's how I found him, but he's been in the online space for 15 years. So he's a bit of an OG character and looking at his business today, we talk about it in the episode, but he has a 10 plus million dollar business and he knows what he's doing.

And the cool part that I really like about James he's, well, he's super woo and we talk a little bit about that in the episode, but he, he lives in a camper van right now, but he's rent, he's renovated his house and he just talks about just different, cool stuff that he does online. It's very, very clear that he lives what he preaches, which is designing a business that fits into your lifestyle and create space to do the things that you actually love. One of the other things that really piqued my interest, but I came across his work was he is the guy that has mentored, coach trained a lot of the big names that you follow online.

Now I'm not going to name drop because that would be a little douchey, but, uh, he's, he's the guy that helps brainstorm and really coach a lot of those incredible business owners. A lot of people call him as the guy that helps coach people who create million dollar businesses. So it, I feel extremely honored that he said yes to be on the show. He was so generous with his time. And you were just going to fricking love this conversation. Now, what are we talking about today? Let me, let me set the scene here. You know, in action movies, how, or like a horror movie. I don't know any kind of movie, whereas there's this moment of like chaos that's happening.

Let's say that there is a burning building. I don't know why, but in my mind I got the picture of , remember that old show, MacGyver, where he would solve everything with duct tape. There's always this moment in the movie or in the show when everything comes crashing down and, and the bad guy seems like he's gonna get away with whatever it is he's trying to do.

And the good guy just has run out of options so the duct tape has run out and it's like, there's no more options. And in that moment, the main character has to step out of the chaos and mentally go, I have to think, I have to think, I have to think of something new. How am I going to get out of this problem?

And the solution of getting out of that problem is something so obvious, but it requires him thinking outside the box. I want you to think about that movie or that moment in a movie is so easy to spot, but think about your moment as an entrepreneur, when you're thinking about your daily life. The volume of things that you're doing between the social media and the creating the content and doing the posts and scheduling the tech and working with clients and doing all of the fricking things. I know for many business owners I've talked to, sometimes it feels that you have a really little to show for it.

And what's worse is it can get really exhausting. It feels like a hustle and it feels like you're doing so many things, but at the end of the day, you're not making the impact that you want. So what I talked to James about today was how do we have that, let's call it a MacGyver moment, where we can allow ourselves to acknowledge that hustle, that grind all the things that we do, what is that moment of clarity we need as entrepreneurs so that we can see the obvious solution to create real change and like MacGyver deactivate the fricking bomb.

Now, any episode James talks to us around that moment is really acknowledging. It comes down to our role that we fill in our businesses. And that role is stepping into the role of a digital CEO. And the truth is that most struggling business owners are wearing the hats of all of these other positions that are not that role.

And when we're not thinking strategically, I mean, it's no wonder that the business is not growing. So we're going to dive into that today. We're going to talk about that. One of the really key things that I asked James to share with us is his story. One of the big conversations I get from so many of you is how do I tell my story in a more compelling way?

What are the types of things that I should be talking about when I'm doing media appearances? When I'm showing up on webinars, when I'm talking to my audience. So I told James, Hey, we've talked about signature stories, origin stories on the show before, can you weave in a bit of yours and let's actually talk about how our stories thread into this idea of building online businesses.

So you're going to hear that theme of stories, metaphors, we talk about things like imposter syndrome and why James says we need to ditch that word and look at it in a different way. And my favorite at the end y'all know, I have to grill him a bit around the idea of communication that the fact is James is a really strong communicator, but you'll find on this episode that wasn't always the case.

So we talk a bit about his journey becoming a really magnetic speaker and how he has cultivated the skill of communication. And we get so geeky around it. We actually decided we're going to make an entire new episode around that. We'll do that at a later point in time, but I am just so excited for you to dive in to this one.

Before you do all of this is culminating to one of the things we're talking about is James is going to scratch the surface on this today, but he has a free live training series coming up. I've been talking about it for weeks. It's called the Rise of the Digital CEO and the special treat is this year, he's teaching it live in the past. It has been a video series, but this is live. He's doing it in a studio with a live audience. 

We get a tune in virtually, but one of the cool parts is he has actual business owners at different phases of business. People who are just getting started, people who are looking to grow, looking to scale, and you're going to not only learn what it takes to step into that role of digital CEO so you can design a business that you love, but you're also going to see right in front of you, the transformation of these business owners, over the course of the  three trainings. 

Now you can get your access to that training. It starts on June 2nd. It's totally free. There are over 17,000 people already registered for the training at the time I'm recording this. Last year,well over 32,000 people participated in the Rise of the Digital CEO. This is the event of the year in online business. So friend, come to learn, but also if you are creating digital products and services, come experience what an incredible live launch looks like. So you can get all the details over at heathersager.com/digitalCEO. Or of course, there's a link to that anywhere you're listening to this episode, but I also want to call it something cool, because if you use the link on the show, heathersager.com/digitalCEO.

 I know that 32,000 people in this year, probably more, it feels like a lot of people. So the question is like, oh man, am I really going to show up to the trainings? Or am I really going to get my big breakthrough? I mean, kind of hunt. It's a free training. So first let me just tell you, james does free trainings different than everyone else. And I learn something every time, every time I go to any of his trainings are live calls. So yes, come and it's going to blow your freaking mind.

And I don't use that phrase very often, but in addition to that, I wanted to do something special for the people who were joining from my community. So I want to invite you to join me inside a free Facebook group. It's a pop-up group that I just opened just for this experience over the three-part mini series.

So between now and June 16th all have that little pop-up boutique group open. It's called the Digital CEO green room. And I want to invite you to join me. It's just a smaller group where you can network, connect with other business owners, ask questions. I'll go live and do a Q and A's throughout the training.

We'll probably do some backstage stuff so we can pull back the curtain a bit and talk about what James is doing in his launch, what we're learning in the launch. And I might even do some mini little extra trainings in there too. So if you want to join us inside the green room. Just reach out to me on Instagram, or you can use the link in the show notes.

We'll have a link to both of those, but register for the event through my link and then you can join us in the green room. All right. Let's be truthful here in this moment. I recorded this episode after I did a Peloton ride, which was probably a terrible mistake on my part or an amazing move because I'm energized and excited, but I'm winded.

I'm winded doing this intro. So if I'm like breathing weird and you're like, man, she sounds very today. That's why, that's why I'm, here's the true serum of your friend and your speaking coach, heather here. Real talk. I actually recorded this intro earlier today. Yeah. I wasn't. I was thinking about it. I was replaying it in my head during my workout.

I'm like, Nope, Nope, Nope. I need to go redo it. So here I am redoing it. And now here I am telling you that everybody did it. This is  how it works y'all. This is how becoming a, the kind of person you want to be is this is what communication looks like. It's hilarious. It's messy. And most importantly, it's real.

You're going to love this episode, please enjoy. And if you do, would you reach out to me on Instagram, take a screenshot, tag me, tag James. Let's like make a little ruckus in a great way online and show him that this podcast, y'all not this tiny little baby thing. We're a big deal. We're rooting you on and we're excited about him taking the time to talk with us today. All right, friend. Enjoy!

Heather Sager  

All right, friends, I'm super, super excited to introduce you to my friend, my Business Coach James Wedmore. Welcome to the show, friend.

James Wedmore  

Heather, thank you so much for having me. This is gonna be great. I'm really excited.

Heather Sager  

This is gonna be a good episode. And also, just as I say it out loud, I feel the need to use your full name. Like you're a celebrity, like, I will address you as James Wedmore throughout this entire episode. 

James Wedmore  

Well, technically, my full name is William James Wedmore. No one knows that, you know, my dad names, both his sons, me and my brother, William and then my brother's name is William Sean and I'm William James. We've been called Sean and James our entire lives. You have no idea how confusing that is growing up with two names. That's you know, and then you go to school and on the registry your name is William. So the teacher is like, William Wedmore. And I was the most shy, awkward, kid growing like, so bad. It's so embarrassing. And I didn't have the nerves to correct a teacher. So I went to a new school, I went to high school in a different town that they filmed a reality show after, Laguna Beach High School. So for four, I'm not joking you for four years. I just said William Wedmore. And the whole school thought my name was William Wedmore. And was actually James and I never corrected anybody for four years. Years later, someone I think in like, senior year of college. Someone, my friends there met someone that I went to school with. They're like, you knew James in high school, what was he like? Oh, you mean William? And they said, they said he was the quiet guy that nobody knew. And I only went to high school with 100 people. It's 100 person graduating class. 

Heather Sager  

Oh my gosh. 

James Wedmore  

It's really funny. I know you didn't ask you this, but it's really funny because like who I am in the role I play today? And ironically, a lot of what I've done. Being a personal brand, stepping into that digital spotlight and literal spotlight, how do you do that when you're so shy, and maybe I'm shy and quiet and like I don't want attention. And it's like, it was actually really easy for me because I struggled so long about being invisible, that when I wrapped my brain around what was preventing me from showing up and shining my own light, as they say, I realize I have to do this for others. And so much of what I do today, it's so easy to have attention on me because it's not about me. 

Heather Sager  

Yes. 

James Wedmore  

About how I can offer something for others. So it's so easy to be like, oh, I don't know, what about who mean to do that to be to be the ? And it's just like, it's not about that. It's about how can I, if there's someone out there, I can help today, then, then it's a no brainer. So interesting, so call me Willia, call me James.

James Wedmore  

I'm gonna call you William for the rest of this show. 

James Wedmore  

I won't correct you. I'll tell you that. 

Heather Sager  

Oh, my God, that's so funny. Well, I will address you into your full name because my husband's name is James. And when I first came across, you I would be talking about you and people would get confused and my kids would get confused or like, wait, Dad's on the podcast? That doesn't sound like dad on the podcast? So it was a very weird, awkward thing I had to work through early in our relationship, you would need William James.

James Wedmore  

Now you can just refer to me as William. It will fix that problem like I do. 

Heather Sager  

Yeah, we fixed that problem. Also, I learned something new snd we're already like just only two minutes into the episode.

James Wedmore  

So fun fact there for you. 

Heather Sager  

All right. So I share with you my audience knows, I've been talking about you for quite a while now, and so I'm super excited to have you on today. For those who are, kind of getting to know I've had a lot of people in like, ah you keep talking about this William James character online, and people know you today as the guy who created this huge program Business by Design. I talked about it all the time. But I know, this isn't always you, right? We somehow think that people who are big brands in the online space somehow just like jumped in the space with this and we all know there's a backstory. That's kind of hard to believe that at one point you were that shy kid in high school. So can you tell us a little bit about your program and just kind of how that came to be?

James Wedmore  

Yeah. You know, I started this 15, 16 years ago and ironically, the shyness, the awkwardness, the introverted ness is what drove me to the internet. I graduated film school, I was double major business in film and one of the top film schools in the country. I was going to go into the advertising world, and I realized really quickly, I do not want to work for anybody else. And I'm like, I'm screwed, because I just knew it in my bones, like, I ain't working for nobody. And I said, but I don't I don't know if I want to like talk to people. I don't know if I want to interact with people or like, so I was like, maybe if I go on the Internet, I can like hide behind my, this is no joke, like I can hide behind my computer, and like build a website or something and people can send me money. That's how it all started. And when I stumbled upon this model that, ironically, it's just like so interesting to me that 15 years later, this is, we're talking 2007 is when I first stumbled upon this as a model, is still the most profitable, scalable, and fulfilling business model that exists online. And there's all you know, there's all these people doing all these opportunities and stuff online. That's wonderful ways to make money, you know, people are doing their things. But I saw all those and I was like, no no, like this is because my heart was is in it, and that is getting paid to teach digital products, information, coaching, you name it. At this point, 15 years later, I've done it all. I've done online courses. I took the film degree that I had all this experience in and I created a $97 product, teaching people how to make their first set of videos. I had a program called 48 Hour Film School. I mean, it took four years of my film education. And I'm like, this is the things you need to know that you can start making videos by the end of the weekend, and sold that for a couple 100 bucks. And I had a million dollar business. And you know, I've been in many other niches, a lot of bad ideas and things I did. And I've had this 15 year journey. And at the end of the day, I look back and everything was stacked against me. Everything, like what do you want to call, like the no skills, no expertise, no knowledge and like the stinking thinking like you wouldn't believe. The BS, the belief system, their just, it was all stacked against me. And today, there's just the most giant smile on my face, because I realize all of that stuff I went through was, so I could have the experience and accrue because we only really truly learned through experience the value to then offer that to others. I had tons of self esteem and insecurity issues, impostor syndrome, you know, like I wanted to be invisible, I didn't want to be seen. And the law of preeminence because there's principles of marketing and business that rule all of this. And when you work with just like law of gravity, you know, when you work in alignment with these principles, things work. So one of them is called the law of preeminence or the law of authority, which means people don't buy coaching information content expertise from someone they don't already perceived as an expert. So if you're not doing something to effectively that's why your story becomes so powerful because metaphors, I go on a lot of tangents and I spray like a firehose, so that way

Heather Sager  

My audience is very familiar, we call them Sager side notes.

James Wedmore  

Oh, that's so good. I just call it, we're gonna take a detour down tangent avenue, and we're gonna get lost for a little bit, but I'll bring you back.

Heather Sager  

You're in welcome territory with that and they love my random metaphors. They call me the analogy queen, so you're in good company. 

James Wedmore  

Here's the tangents. I was gonna go on is, so law of you know, law of preeminence. Very important, right. But then we talk about metaphor, metaphor in everything that I've learned and done is the hands down the most powerful tool that we have at our disposal to teach, to share, to shift someone, to help to coach and guess what a story is. Story is a metaphor, metaphor, analogy, simile, whatever you want to call. It is a metaphor, and it's so so so powerful. So your story even becomes a powerful metaphor for indirectly conveying and communicating your expertise, your authority, and that is needed. So going back to the main road off, of tangent that happened here. I had all these things stacked against me. But as I look back, I mean, I like to brag and say I've struggled in most people. I mean, it was four and a half, five years. I had to move back in with mom and dad. I was broke, like, broke, like people say, well, how much money were you making a year? I was like, under 10,000 a year for the whole year. And it's not like at work was a problem. I became a workaholic instantly when I started doing this. I was working 12 to 14 hour days, every single day. And that was really easy to do, because I got addicted to my sister's Adderall qnd I was popping 20 milligrams of that a day, because that's real healthy. Oh, my gosh, I dropped down to 140 pounds, I looked like a skeleton. And at the end of the day, I had nothing to show for it. But there was still that desire of, I know, this is what I want to do. I know this is what I was meant to do and I want to do it. So I've had all this experience and journeys along the way. And so today, it's so exciting because I'm doing what I wanted to do 15 years ago, and it's like every day you wake up, you're like this is it. This is what I was working for all those years. It's like it's here. And yes, in the most simplistic sense that I'm teaching people how to sell more of their digital products. Course membership, group coaching, it really doesn't matter because their principles and the strategies are fairly universal across the board, so I'm teaching people how to do that. But what I realized is that there were really two big things beyond just the strategy that people needed. And the first is, is the internal, with us. You know, as an entrepreneur and as a business owner, we have to understand that you're a machine, you're a high performance machine. And we got to treat ourselves like a high performance machine, you know, we got to fuel ourselves with the right mindset and energy and attitude and perspectives. And business is a very different way of looking at things than what we were raised with. You know, you didn't really learn business marketing, copywriting and entrepreneurship in school. Most of us didn't, you know. I didn't in the public education system in the US. And then the other aspect of it is, you know, not just the internal but the mindset and that's why I have my show, Mind Your Business podcast, but business itself, and this is the big thing that I love bringing to the table. It is a very important conversation which is that there is actually a pretty big gap between calling ourselves a coach or an entrepreneur and being a business owner, and running your business like a business. And I had to learn that and I had to learn that the hard way. Once I was starting to make some money and it started panning out for me and this was back in, I can take it back to about 2014. Me and back in time a little bit and I had started making money. I built this million dollar year business selling YouTube and video. I'm making videos of teaching video and some video, and helping people and they're making their videos and really behind all that, that under curtain, that curtain that flip through line was I was helping other people be seen beyond camera, get out into the world. It's really amazing. And then I get that call from your CPA and of course, entrepreneurs, they don't want to hear about CPAs and bookkeeping and numbers and expenses. We don't want to look at that. We just want to say, let's make more money, right? And she goes, hey, last month, January was a really good month. It was actually your biggest month financially. In a non like promotion launch kind of month, it was just like your baseline. She did $70,000, even though some change in specifics and brought us about $70,000. Hey, that's great. Cool. She goes, but I got some bad news. How could anything be bad if I'm making $70,000 a month? I'm pretty awesome. And she said, well, that is awesome, but your expenses are higher. And when she told me that I was losing money, even though I had made $70,000 that month, I think that's when I experienced my first actual panic attack. Because when I think back on it, I can remember where I was standing, I could take you back to the exact like, places where my feet were because I got tunnel vision. My heart was like beating out of my chest and I dropped to my knees. And it was such a scary moment for me because it wasn't about losing money. It was, you know, there's this powerful quote that I've just always tuned on for years, which is that we live in the feeling of our thinking, not the feeling of the world. And I wasn't responding or rather reacting to the news that I had spent more than I had made. I was reacting to a world of a decision that in that moment, that was the end of the dream. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you, you know, it was fun while it lasted. This is it, and that was awful because then where your mind goes from there is like so now what? Do I just go get a job now? That's it, you know, and then the best years are behind you and like my whole life was about business. And it was so funny because right before this episode, I'm doing a house remodel. This is weird the way. I live in Sedona, Arizona. This is a tangent, by the way. And Sedona is known for its synchronicities and I could regale you on the stories of the most miraculous synchronicities that happen here. And here's one examples. I needed a handyman to just help with all the little stuff in between while the more skilled guys like the electricians and plumbers are doing stuff. But I need the guy to do the little basic stuff. And I literally found the guy as he's leaving town. And he's like, I was out on my way out. And he's like, I'll stay and I'm like, look, I'll give you months of work. And he has, he's been here since January. And then of course, as soon as he starts working, I find out that he's been playing a guitar, playing for months. I'm sorry, years, years in bands and all that stuff. I said I'm looking to learn. And we're just talking so he's teaching me the guitar as he's like working on my house, like what a gift for me. It's like we work a little bit on the house and then he gives me a guitar lesson and a practice and it's just, what a joy. Anyways, he's talking just about this, because he was talking about how like a lot of the players that he knows are that are really good started when they were young. And he's like, you know, it's just something when you're in that young age and you start now. They just, we're talking about that it's like, I think it's because they're more like in a hypnotic, you know, unconscious level, they don't have the critical thinking and they're not in their head, like us adults are all the time. They're just in a flow state and they're just a sponge, and it becomes like instant muscle memory because they are learning about the world. And so they're learning the skill at the same time. And you hear all these people that are very talented musicians and they started early. And he's like, and he comes to me, he's like, I didn't. He goes, for me, it was sports. I was really good, athletic. So I started early with sports. And I think that's why and I was just sitting there going, well, you know what it was for me, as business. As I was five years old, I was already selling lemonade down the street. At six, I was hired by my neighbors who had this two acre property with fruit trees and all that herb gardens and stuff to water their garden. And of course, I learned how to like set up, like sprinkler things to, so I didn't have to hold it and do it myself to just automate it. And while I was automating it, because they were out of town, they go on these like, two month vacations to Europe, I would pick all the fruit and sell it to all the neighbors about six or seven. I mean, and then by eight, I'm grabbing golf balls out of the the lakes, the ponds at the golf course and selling them back to the golfers by high school. I'm going, my dad, like I was 14, 15 years old, and my dad is driving me around in my mom's minivan and we're picking up old classic motorcycles and dirt bikes. And I'm restoring them and selling them on eBay and making two $3,000 a week as a kid. And so I realized that I've been doing this my whole life, and I'd even just had that thought before this episode. So you can imagine, here we are back on main street. When you have an experience, it happens in your life, where you go, all that has to die now, what you thought your whole life was leading you towards, is now come to an end. And that's why I was having such panic attack. Now, what I have learned, are a couple of things as I get a little older, a little, little grayer in the hair a little wiser, is that pain, believe it or not, is a blessing. And you've heard me say this over and over again, it's hard to hear that in the moment I get that, and I've gone through some things. But pain is what forces us to pay attention.

James Wedmore  

You see, the problems that you're dealing with, especially in your business, are there to show you what you can't see. Because if I asked anyone here listening, what are your biggest blind spots? You could not answer that question. And if you answered it, you're full of poop because they're a blind spot because you can't see him. So the blind spot is always the thing you can't see. And the only way you can really see it, sadly, is when we go through the thing that we go through. As entrepreneurs, when we ignore certain aspects of the business, we throw money at things, we ignore things, I don't want to look at a bank account, I don't want to look at expenses, I don't want to look at, I don't want to worry about this team, and I'll just do it myself and all that type of stuff. We are building up all these blind spots that become bigger and bigger and bigger and problems until you wake up the day I woke up when you realize, it doesn't really matter, kid, how much money you think you're making. If you're making less money, you're losing money, you're making less money than the guy you're ordering your Subway sandwich from, what's it all for. And I will tell you to this day, that moment that experience what a gift, was still to this day, one of the most transformative in the context of business, most transformative moments and experiences of my entire life because that's when I figured out everything I was doing wrong. Everything I was unwilling to and stubbornly unwilling to see and it changed everything, and it changed in an instant. Because my best advice is, when you go through a problem you want to take it on from a new lens, there's a power. And I know I talk a lot, Heather, I'm so sorry, but I'll shut up in a second.

Heather Sager  

It's was not new information like as you're talking. 

James Wedmore  

I was prepared for this case, but I want to give people something that is called the power of the pyramid or the power of the triangle. I like to use pyramid because it's the P of the alliterations. But the moment a problem exists, I want you to do this. You're going to create three points, the problem, and you. You and the problem. And then the third point is you observing you viewing the problem. And the moment you do this in your life at any moment you have an ability to or an opportunity to in a way disassociate, and see yourself outside of yourself to see what you can't see because Einstein said you can't solve a problem from the same level of consciousness that created it. And so that's why when your friends bring you your problem, their problems, it's so easy for you. When your clients bring you their problems. It's so Oh, just do this. And they're like, Wow, I couldn't see it because I was so close to it. And so when you can learn the ability to separate, that's everything. In business, problems are unavoidable and inevitable. We are in the business of solving problems. And our job is not to avoid problems or pretend that they don't exist. Our goal is always to see how much can I master the ability to conquer this problem, to move through this problem. And the way through it is that we disassociate and we see this is here, this is here for me, this is happening for me so I can learn. And then when you get on the other side of it, boom, you got another story to share with your audience so they can avoid what you just went through. And obviously talking about metta, that's me doing this right now because I want you to avoid this. So here's what I did. This is the dumbest, weirdest thing ever, because I'm pretty weird. I did say, I will say when you're going through something that's really like, like, shit, just hit the fan. You want to walk away, take a break, create that space. Do it mentally with the power of the pyramid. And then physically, you want to get away and I've learned that. That's such a gift, you'll see, right? If you're just constantly in it, your brain wants to hook you into it and make it worse and now you're creating these predictions about the worst case scenario is exactly what I was doing instead of I calm myself down and walked away. And one of my favorite pastimes is Lego. This is I'm really weird. So I play with Legos, like toys. Yes, I'm an adult male.

Heather Sager  

There are legos all over my house, like that's my, all my two sons, my husband.

James Wedmore  

Oh, sure they're your sons. Okay.

Heather Sager  

There I don't know. The moment I found out I was pregnant with my first child, my husband started buying Legos. He's like, we have kids. now. I can buy them again. It's acceptable.

James Wedmore  

Like, I'm gonna wait about four years, but okay. I know, because I started getting Legos for my nephew when he was two and he gets so frustrated because they're so delicate that he would break them into their cry but now he builds them himself. Okay, so I'm playing with Lego. And I was building the VW, red VW bus, the classic bus and I finished it. And I was like, look at this, this thing is awesome. It took me like six hours. It's like, you know, 2500 pieces or something. And I looked at this, and I looked at the picture of the box. I looked at the picture of the box and I looked at the Lego. And I said, look, this is exactly what the picture on the box looks like. This is amazing. And I said, I don't know, I'm not an architect. I'm not an engineer but look at what I did. And the reason my business was losing so much money, as a little side story, is because anything I didn't want to do, I was throwing money at the problem and trying to convince people to give money to them and say here, do this, fix this, do this for me, boom, boom, boom, but I was still working like 10,12 hours a day. So I'm working harder than I ever have and I'm spending more than I ever have on people to do things and then I had to go do it for them anyways and fix their mess. Sound familiar to anybody? To the point that there was just no money left over. And I literally had this moment of saying, why can't people just do what I did? I follow the instructions and I did it and it looks just like the picture on the box. Is that too much to ask for? And then of course, I chuckled and laughed, and I realized like, oh, well, maybe if I gave them an instruction manual and they will know how. And that's exactly what I did. I sat down, I said, I mean, these are the moments in our life that we like cherish because this is what movies are made off. And that's when they like the person has that mad scientist moment where they like clear off the desk and they start over and they they're scribbling on the pad 

Heather Sager  

Dramatic scene. 

James Wedmore  

And they really are that like mad scientist going to work with a genius, and that's what I did. I cleared, this is no joke. I cleared everything off my schedule. And for two weeks, I obsessed in the most painfully detailed way. One of the most common reoccurring projects that we're doing in the business, which was webinars, I would go on I do webinars, teach free content, get people on the webinar, teach free content, and then make my offers. And that's how I was bringing in a lot of my sales, but it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work to create the pages and the marketing and the emails and the software and the connections and the blah, blah, blah. And when it all comes down to I think it's like 172 steps or something like that. I had no idea. We're big picture thinker. So we chunk things like it can't be that hard. I do it all the time, you know, but it was. It was a lot of work. So for two weeks, I sat there and I slowed down and one of the things I've learned since then is if you want to speed up, you got to slow down. So I sat down, it's okay, what's the first step? Well, first step is you got to log in to and this is what it wasn't, log in to Go to webinar. Okay. So I'd write that down. Go to Go to webinar.com. Click the login, I'm not joking. Click the Login button on upper right hand corner. Oh, let me add an image that let me add an arrow and I say good. Use this username and password. Boom. Okay. Now click Submit. Oh, yeah, that level of detail. Look at any Lego instruction manual. That's the level of detail. Now I know some people what they're already saying, right? Like I ain't got time for that. It's killing me. Yeah, you ain't got time for this because you haven't created this. Because you're too busy doing it all yourself, right? And then okay, click the new webinar button up in the upper left hand. Yeah, let's add an image there. Okay, title. Okay, here's the format to use for the title. Two weeks, this took me. But here's what it was all worth for. I went to a little website called onlinejobs.ph where you can hire virtual assistants in the Philippines for a fraction of the price, right? Because the Filipino peso, well, the US dollar still has a ton of value and way over in the Philippines. So the exchange rate is amazing. So you can get somebody for like $4, $6 a month, 4, or 5, $6, something like that. And no training, I interviewed somebody really quickly in five minutes on Skype. And then I said, okay, no training, and no context, nothing. I said, I'm gonna give you something and you tell me when it's done.

James Wedmore  

And I just gave them this Lego instruction manual to the entire webinar, and I waited two days later. Done, sir, here it is. The registration page, I tested it, boom, went to the Thank you, page. Boom, added me to the GoToWebinar, boom, start sending me the emails, boom, the tags are there, the reminders come in, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Perfect. Two days, they spent maybe five to six hours on it, do the math, five or six hours times five bucks. And all of a sudden, that was like, it worked. That changed everything. And I went to work and we built the entire Lego instruction manual for my entire business. And when I did that, I got to hand it off to other people. And not the overprice freelancers that are charged. I mean, I hear some of these stories, people come into my my mastermind or my coaching programs, and they're like, well, I have this virtual assistant that works with me, and she's local. And she's, the problem is she's like $65 an hour. $65 an hour to do what like get you coffee and and manage your calendar. Are you kidding me? I'll be your virtual assistant. Are you hiring? Let's do this. All I gotta do is set up because I'll just go hire a VA to do it for me, and I'm gonna get 65 bucks but that's crazy pants. And these are entrepreneurs that don't want to look at the expense, they don't want to look at the numbers, they don't want to look at things like I'm too busy, I haven't got time for this. And again, it's the symptom becomes the cause or excuse for why you don't change. But this symptom is the effect of these causes. And if you got that, that changes everything. So that changed our whole business. And the real simple takeaway is that, when you notice you put more structure in your business, that's when you get freedom back in your life, the more structure you have in your business, the more freedom you get back in your life. That's what we've done. That's what took us to $10 million a year. Plus, in one year we went from  from two, boom, immediately. We're on pacing to boom, hit three that year, and then went from three to over 10 in a year. And it was because it freed up my time to do the things that actually make you money and that really becomes the real question. How are you expected to make more money in your business when you spend all day doing things that don't make you money. And when I changed my role, when I changed my function, my value and where I placed my time and energy, that changed everything. And yes, in a nutshell, that's exactly what Business by Design is doing. I was still doing the YouTube stuff, I was still doing video. And then I was like holy cow,like, how I was running businesses, this is how most people are running business. And Business by Design became the entire Lego instruction manual, the processes, the execution guides, the SOPs, the step by step by step so that when you get it, you say, oh, I want to build a landing page, I want to build a survey, I want to do an email, I want to do an open cart sequence, I want to do a big old launch, whatever it is, I want to do a process to get a coaching client. It's literally a step by step instruction manual that you can hand off to a team member, a virtual assistant. You could do it yourself, totally. And you're going to do it with more certainty and confidence because you follow an instruction manual, you're gonna get the end result, or you can hand it to somebody else. And that's where things get really, really, really exciting. But the entrepreneur doesn't tend to think like, do they? And this is where I talk more about, like, we got to step into the role being that actual business.

Heather Sager  

Yeah, I hope we go there. Let me pick up the baton because you think you threw that piece around the Lego instruction manual. So when I entered the online space 2018. I'm setting the scene. Instagram is really starting to become a really normal thing. Personal brands like the digital business product space, right? Not really mainstream at all, but starting to get curious, but I think what happened with me, happens to a lot of people who are entering this space right now where you come in and see so many people who look like they have very legit established brands. It feels like everybody's farther ahead. And what happened with me is, and I think this really resonates with people is because of what we see online, people think like, oh my gosh, I have to like, plan out. What's my brand? How am I going to show up? What's my offer? Get it perfect. Build the course they do all these things and that's what I was doing when we cross paths in 2019. I was in that space of going, let me build the perfect brand. Let me build the perfect thing so that I can get started online and enter Lego instruction manuals. When you and I crossed paths, and I started digging into your programs and your content that was the catalyst under me of going like, okay, hang on. I'm not thinking like a business owner. I'm sitting on the sidelines planning to run this digital business but the problem, 

James Wedmore  

Getting ready to get ready, yeah.

Heather Sager  

Yeah, like, and it's just gets ready mode and one of the first things you mentioned, the whole virtual assistant. I literally picked up your playbook, your Lego instruction manual from the hiring the team piece, and it was probably maybe 60 days into Business by Design. I picked it up and I'm like, are I'm gonna follow these damn stupid instructio. And I went to that exact website, I set up the account. I got to pay for the free or the account upgrade. So I can see whatever. I did the whole grumble thing and I put it out and I got like, I don't know if 600 responses to it but I followed your specific instructions. I could filter them out. I did the Skype interviews, and I hired my first Filipino virtual assistant. Her name is Dorothy and she is now full time on my team. She has been with me for over three years. The point I want to make is following that instruction manual is when I hired my team member, literally what you said they had no idea how the online space works. She had no frickin idea. But I will tell you, Doreethy will be listening to this podcast before the rest of you. And she is the one creating all of the show notes, and all of the visuals and everything that you will see from this episode and she had never done any of these things before but the power of having the instruction manual is that you don't have to do it yourself. So that was just the first catalyst for me of going alright, this works, number one, but number two, like you have to think differently, and you were a huge part of helping me step into that. So let's talk about that difference a bit, right, around that difference between people who come into the space saying I have a business, maybe or maybe not they're making money online. But really, what is that shift for someone? We talk about being a digital CEO. What does that really look like for someone who's thinking about creating digital products and really stepping into that role to create the business they want?

James Wedmore  

Absolutely. Okay, there's a couple things we're gonna say, first of all, very important to write this down. Business growth happens in stages, right? So there's a stage that you're in, and whatever stage that you're in, it could be just getting started, I haven't even started yet. It could be like, I'm already at six or multiple six, and I want to go to seven, I want to go to eight, you know. And so that's growth happens in stages. So when each stage, there's really a strategy and a way of thinking at each stage. Now the problem is where most people are coming in from coming into, and I was guilty, this is what I realized, is they come in with an employee mindset, instead of a business owner mindset. That's what I did. My whole thing was, I can do this, I can be successful because I can work harder than anybody else. That's an employee. So employee links their value to their time and effort. So if I work harder, and I work longer, I am of more value, and I will make more money. And nothing could be further from the truth in business, and you know how many feathers I ruffle when I say things like that? I mean, it gets people so angry. And of course it is because it's very confronting, because you've been telling yourself if I just keep pushing myself, drink more coffee, and watch more motivational videos on YouTube, then I can push through and get results. But let's use a metaphor. You and I both say we're going to build pools in our backyards, we're neighbors, and I start just saying, okay, well, let's go, let's get to work. The end result is a finished pool. And I pull out a shovel out of the shed and get to work. And you're just laughing at me as you're sitting there having your morning coffee, looking over the fence going this idiot and then you order some guy with the earthmover

Heather Sager  

I may call up my excavator buddy.

James Wedmore  

Exactly and you're done. You know, and I'm sitting there three weeks later, you know, four feet deep, you know, just in pain, you know, getting injuries, shoulder injuries, and I'm complaining and sweating and all this stuff I couldn't do because I was doing this. And you're like you're already pouring this concrete.

James Wedmore  

But I would say James, I would say you need to do the problem triangle. You need to see yourself. Remove yourself from the problem and notice that

James Wedmore  

I love it. The shovel is stupid. So that's the employee mindset is like, Okay, I worked harder than you. So how come I don't have the results that you have, Heather? I worked harder than you. This is not fair. I deserve a pool because I worked harder. It's like, life doesn't work that way. Because you're already deserving of everything you want. That's a really hard concept for people to get oh, you deserve it. When I say like, oh, I'm going on vacation next week. People say things like, you deserve it like, I know, so do you. But it's so sad how much of a culture we live in that it's so around this filter of work means deservingness to the point that someone will hear this, and they're gonna be upset by what I'm saying. Oh, so you're saying we should be lazy? Hard work is lazy. You're already being lazy. Getting a shovel is lazy because it's lazy thinking. You didn't think strategically about the smartest, most effective and efficient way to do it. You went the lazy route. You went for the shovel in the shed, instead of saying, I gotta call the best guy who digs holes fastest at the best price using the best equipment. That's the hard work. It is different. So the employee mindset is just telling you, if you just push an act, and only work and operate in a 3d of more action, you'll be successful. I did that even with Adderall, which is a legalized form of speed. It wasn't working. So that's where people are coming in from they. Yeah, go ahead.

Heather Sager  

Specific to I think about my audience listening to this, I hear this so often, especially people who are former executives, or in management positions in corporate or running brick and mortar business, right, they think about a lot of those situations, it was a badge of honor to show that you were busy to fill your schedule to be in the meetings to be present because if you weren't, you would miss the opportunities. So it's one of those things that it's the yeah, there's the busyness piece where we can think about a lot of times being an employee is showing up and doing the job. But there was also a lot of attachment for people around, I'm more valuable, I get more opportunities when I operate this way. And it's a big untangling that happens when you 

James Wedmore  

It is huge and untangling. And listen, it's really like what Heather may not have said about me is I can be very triggering for people like I can, I'm very contrarian in that sense. I upset people. I'm not trying to at all. I'm just have a very different viewpoint and just look at the term, the metaphor, a badge of honor. A badge is something you put on you outward to others to signal how they think and perceive of you. When you take off all the badges, you're telling yourself, you finally let go of caring what anyone else thinks. And at the end of the day, only you will live your life, it is your life. So who you living for? Are you living for the badge of honor, or the perception and, and opinions of others? And if you are and you want to be valued by people, and you just want them to think good things and you think that the only way that they'll do that as if you work yourself into an early grave, have at it. But today, you know, I can have a you know, an eight figure company and if you saw me around town, I'm in a work t shirt and old board shorts with a hole in them and sandals,

Heather Sager  

And flip flops.

James Wedmore  

And it's you know, and people like always comment on that and stuff. And it's really funny, people perceive you differently, but I don't care and it doesn't affect me. In fact, I prefer that. I prefer to kind of blend in and be more visible than say, I need to have but teach the road. I mean, it's just like if it makes you feel good, it makes you happy, go do it. But are you doing it because that it's such a driver a need for you because decision, it says a need and a hunger of the ego to I want people to think a certain way about me and it's like, then you're not really free. And, you know, again, I can go on so many tangents here. But entrepreneurs become entrepreneurs because they crave more freedom. But freedom starts from within first. So if your whole life is driven around the need to be liked by others, or have the only thing can say good things about you, you are the furthest thing from free. When you are free from within, within first emotional mental freedom, you don't give any weight or credence to what other people think. Because they're already thinking what they're thinking. You're thinking what you're thinking, but I don't need to let it drive my life. That's freedom, then we can go out and get the time and money freedom. But there's a lot of people that wake up and have more money in the bank account, and they don't have the time and they don't have the mental emotional freedom. So that was a side tangent. Let us go back to this. This is a very important question. So we got this employee mindset, you're not an employee. That's like spending your whole life learning how to play basketball, and then you got play soccer. You got the wrong skill set. It worked in corporate, it works when you're working for somebody else. It's a different game. So it's a different set of rules, you need to be a different player.

James Wedmore  

And so coming in with the employee mindset, we have to we have to untangle that as you said. The other thing is that when you're in this business, 90% of it is marketing, copy words, messaging, marketing, and sadly people who create really bad or poor copy and messaging, and they approach their copy and messaging like a consumer. Well, I would never respond to that I would never do this, I would never pop up of it. It's all consumer mindset based thinking instead of marketer based thinking. And so we kind of come in from it from the outside in versus the inside out if that makes sense. So then to really answer what you're asking here is the moment you're in business, there are a series of roles that exist in the company. Each role all has a function, so there are functions that exist. Those functions are fulfilled by people that becomes a role. If it's just you you're doing, technically, you're responsible for all of the roles in the company. I'm talking from customer support, support and invoicing, to basic admin, tech, social media, copywriting, fulfillment, the list goes on and on, right? You got someone doing your Tiktok, or your podcasts and your podcasts editing and all that type of stuff, it adds up really fast. Now you know why you're overworked and seeing little results, because what we end up doing as a default way, I see this happen all the time I was guilty of it myself, is we tend to spend all day in the lower valued activities and the lower roles, which means there are things that need to get done, well, someone's got to edit this episode, someone's got to add the shownotes. But imagine, if Heather's doing that all day, then I mean, she can't be on as many podcasts she can't be connecting with you guys. She can't be in her programs, coaching and teaching. She can't be making her offers and getting more people into her world because she's got to edit shownotes. And then she'd wake up one day and say, I don't get it. I worked so hard on my show notes. I worked so hard on editing my podcasts, I'm working 10 hours a day. How come I'm not getting more clients because shownotes don't get you clients. And you spent more time in the things that don't make you more money than the things that did. And so the ultimate role is the role that we call the digital CEO. Every business even if it started five minutes before this episode started, you said like I want to have a business today has a CEO, the owner. The buck stops with the owner. And that is who is the visionary? Where are we going and why? And how are we doing it? What's the function? What's the strategy? What's the big picture? This is the person that is ultimately responsible. This one is one's a really tough pill for people to swallow. But this is the person that's ultimately responsible for sales and profit, revenue and profit. And I tell people all the time, I said, look, if you're not if you've been in business for for more than six months, and you're not making money, it doesn't, we have a different conversation about like, is this at the level I want to be at? But if you've been in business for six months or more and you're still not making sales, you are not taking financial responsibility for your business that's on you. You had six months, that's 180 something whatever days, half a year, to make an offer every single day you chose not to. You said no, I will not ask for a sale, I will not go talk to a potential client, I will not make an offer for half a year, every day for six months that's on you. Because no one else is coming to build your frickin business for you. Now, I understand what you know, but I don't know how, I don't know what to say, I don't know, where did I get all that stuff? We have to have the knowledge. But you also had six months to figure out how to do it too. And again, I'm at the risk of people oh my gosh, this guy's a jerk or what? No, I'm fighting for you. Because the only thing I had going for me in those four and a half years I struggled was I had the most supportive parents that said, it's okay, son, we believe in you. You can borrow some more money and you can live under our roof. And I was like I tell all my friends like these weren't my parents or my roommates, you know, and my roommates again, are making me get the groceries and clean up my room. I got the worst roommates but I had that.

James Wedmore  

And a lot of my people that come to work and they don't have that. You got a mortgage, you got kids, you're maybe still have a job, you're transitioning, you know, you have other responsibilities. You don't have the luxury to fool around with this and play business owner, which is what a lot of people are doing. And so we show our clients, as soon as like, you get to sales, you get to revenue in the first 90 days or less. And you have to and that's the beauty of it. That's why I love the digita, I mean, you can get coaching clients. They can offer it tomorrow. My little sister finally joined my my program. She had no website, no audience,  no following, no list, nada. And when she finally pulled the trigger and said, I'm going to follow what James is sharing in BBD. She took one of the processes and she followed it. And in 30 days, she got her first of the seven people into her program. Now she told me her goal was, well, she said if I get one, I'll be happy. James, just one person. I'll be happy. And she goes, but my real goal is three. If I could get three like that's my stretch goal. Well, she got seven. And then two weeks later, I mean no launch, no ads, no nothing. And then two weeks later, she calls me up, says James helped me what do I do? What do I do? And I go, what? She goes, well, I'm two weeks into my program. I've been teaching it. She shot it live. She'd spent six months like building it and creating it making it perfect. She taught it live on Zoom calls. They paid her to join her live for six weeks on Zoom calls. And I go what's the problem? Because I've had two people this week reach out to me and they want to join my program. They said like they keep hearing great things about it now they want in what do I do? I don't really think that's a problem. I don't think that's a good thing. Just let them in. I think everyone will be okay. And she did, she got nine people. She just relaunched again for her second time. Still no audience, she's done nothing. In the meantime, she is a full time mom of two kids. She homeschools both of them. And during all of this, she was the primary caregiver for my father, our father as he was passing, as well as like managing the house. And she'd relaunched it the second time and double her sales. And, you know, like, and she did that fast didn't like that. And big brother did not help her. I said, ah, sorry, Jill, you don't get the special brother treatment. You gotta go through it just like everyone else. 

Heather Sager  

I'm pretty confident this story that you did try to give her your program and she's like, never touched it.

James Wedmore  

No, she was ready. Okay, so that's like the best part of the story.

Heather Sager  

Yeah, she said, I will not let you give it for me for free. I'm gonna do it.

James Wedmore  

So she bought she bought last year on her birthday, and she's like this birthday gift to myself. And she just sent me a text today, because she just finished the second one. I'm going to read it to you guys.

Heather Sager  

You're such a proud older brother. 

James Wedmore  

I really am. Let's see. I did it with five exclamation points. I just finished up my last coaching call, week six of six and I'm sitting here with the biggest smile. I still can't get over that people want to learn what I know. For so long, I thought no one did znd that is just not true. I know that now. I feel so silly for waiting so long to launch. This was amazing znd I love what I teach. I'm just over. If I'm just what is she said, I'm just over here living my business. Oh, I'm just over here living my Business by Design. And the next time I'm going even bigger. This is so amazing. So she buys it. Yeah, so she and she's talking about me being insecure. She's way more like, in that insecurity. You know, like, we're just really shy and quiet normally, like, I know, you're like, yeah, right.

Heather Sager  

I am the shy like people laugh all the time. I was the shy kid. In my kindergarten report card, literally, said, Heather's a pleasure to have in class, if only she would say words out loud.

James Wedmore  

And, you know, that's the thing is like, that's how we might be in our normal life. But this, like, I don't know, like when you're passionate about something and you want to talk about it, you just light up, you know and that's 

Heather Sager  

One of the stories I share a lot on the show, I have two thoughts of what we were just talking about. One, one of the stories I shared with you before we started. A little bit of my story and my audience knows this, that my whole journey into the spotlight was when I watched my mom fight with cancer when I was in high school. And my family, we started a nonprofit organization. It was our last Christmas present we gave mom before she passed. And the whole organization was about helping women be empowered by knowing different alternative and holistic treatments to be able to help with their cancer. And back in 2001, alternative medicine was not a normal thing. So there was no information online. But it was a really powerful part of my mom's journey of her feeling good again. But we started this nonprofit and I have five brothers and sisters, we had to figure out somebody had to get out there and talk about it. And I was 17, I was pretty articulate. So they're like you're the youngest, you go. So I was I was thrust into the spotlight around, Heather, you have to go out and talk about the organization. You got to talk about Mom. We got to fundraise money and bring awareness to it. And the story I say or the point of the story I always share all the time is you know, some people were born with this desire to be in the spotlight. They're just humorous, they're good at jokes, they love the spotlight, they love being that that person at parties, it's always in the center. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's just some people. But there is a huge portion of people and a lot of people that I find in this space who are experts or have really powerful stories that they want to help others that they find themselves in a position where they're called into the spotlight. And those are the people that I feel like they have this shyness, they have this awkwardness they have, like many of us suffer with imposter syndrome and they don't really know that their story is enough that they feel this deep calling that they need to get out. And they don't know what that looks like because they see people so confidently out there online. And they wonder like, Well, I'm not that person, how do I do that? I think your sister is one of those, those people for sure. But I think it's so beautiful that when timing happens when you hear an interview like this, you come across content online, if somebody's talking about James, or what I do helping people share their stories. When you have that moment you get curious, like you got to lean into it and figure out but how could I, like how could I share this more? And I think one of the really beautiful things around where your work and my work intersect is what you did for me and your programs and me learning from you for the last few years is you not only helped me get into a business model that worked better for me and for my life as a mom, but you really pushed me to say, monetize this shit now. Like, it's like, okay, like, you know all the things you can build on things. So that was one of the things we were talking about sales piece that monetization. My favorite little gem to share with people online was when I launched my first program, I had the idea I was trying to build it out. And you were like, Oh, hell no, you're like doing it now, like you are getting this thing out now. So like your sister, I had an email list of 136 people and I followed the process, and I did the launch before it was ever bill and that first launch, y'all was $26,000, off of an email list of 136 people.

James Wedmore  

Holy cow. 

Heather Sager  

I launched again, it was $24,000 off of an email list of 240 people. We launched again, and again and again and again and you know, we talked about this in California last month. My last launch, tiny little thing, we tried something new with a workshop series, it converted up 44% y'all like, 

James Wedmore  

Oh, amazing! 

Heather Sager  

You know your shit, you know how to make people money, but the thing that I really love and respect about you is that you really focus on helping people who have big hearts that want to serve, help them get out of their own freakin way so they can do what they're meant to do.

James Wedmore  

Yeah, and I appreciate that. I really want to talk about that for a moment, as you shared that beautiful story of like, it really feels like you're thrust into the spotlight. So I think this will help people. You know, today, I've been a spiritual seeker for a long time, not for forever, because I was very like 3d like, just like, not interested in that world. And then I had a turning point in my life and I started just beginning more of a spiritual seeker. And first I started with like, oh, there's like, law of attraction and energy and I went down that route. And I work with a shaman today that's the shares ancient wisdom. And one of the most beautiful things and important things that he has shared. And this can really help people that feel like they're labeling it as an impostor syndrome. And I'd like you to say, just like, let's not even go there and call it that anymore. What, why you're feeling what you're feeling that would cause you to call something imposter syndrome. Chances are, it's because you're already a very humble person. And when we look out at some of those people, and this isn't a judgement, I mean, you might see it as but it just kind of is the way it is. A lot of those people that have that gift of gab are they're really out there and they got the big like personalities and audiences and the influencers. And there's this whole world of influencers now on Instagram that are like famous for nothing like they don't have a business like around other than like, sponsors, it was totally fine. 

Heather Sager  

Look at my cool transitions. 

James Wedmore  

Yeah, or buy my T-shirts or something. We tend to sense maybe this is more unconscious, and now I'm just putting words to it, you kind of tend to get a sense that they have a bit of self importance. Because they have a big following, they're now better than or superior, or more important, or more have more value, or, you know, they have more of that what we would call like ego. And then what we tend to do, if we're not careful, as we say, well, I want that I want to be at that level. So maybe I need to, you almost buy into their belief that they are of more value or more importance. And then we think that we then have to, and I cannot stress enough, if really, this is like one of the most. I'm still learning this every day. But this is this is truth. The more humility, the more humbleness you come from, the more powerful you'll be. And what that means can be a whole world, but a lot of it is, you know, look, yeah, we make a lot of money, bunch of people follow nice house, I don't have a nice car, I have a jeep. I really liked my jeep, I just wanted a Jeep out in Sedona. But I have to make a concerted effort every day to never let any of that change me, to never feed that into an ego of importance or significance or better than. I have to, your ego wants too. You know, someone like Heather says, James, you know, I love that, you know, you're so amazing. You're so brilliant. Like, I can't, I could, but it takes like a discipline. Yeah, I am. That's right. Don't you forget it. You know, and a lot of people do that. And I've been down that route before. But at the end of the day, like any one of us can lose it all tomorrow and who are you then? So if you're special and important and amazing, and blah blah and better than other people because you have a following or some money so then who are you when you don't have those things? And it's such a more powerful place to come from when you're always grounded in that, the waI say y is just that humbleness. They're just humble. And that's something that's from within, and I'm learning that and trying to practice that every single day. And what really helps me that that is a there is no different, I don't have anything special. Okay? So if I have a result or an external outcome, the only thing I have going for me is time in the game. I've just been doing it longer. And I help people get in the game because I know that it's going to be like this guitar conversation. One of the things that triggered it is one of the other guys that was here he goes, Oh, you play the guitar, because I got the guitar out. I'm really trying to get good at it. And ultimately, I've always really wanted to get into, and he goes, check out my son, his son's nine, he's playing like Metallica, like, and I got so discouraged for a minute. And he's like, he's only been playing for a year. I'm like, ae you kidding me? Like, you know how hard 

Heather Sager  

That kid is kicking your ass. 

James Wedmore  

And the thing is, is like, what you're embarking on, and what you're doing is is skills, it takes time, their skills, and just like playing the guitar, the more you practice, the better you're going to get. And people want it to be instant, they want it to be right away. And so the only thing I have going for me, is I've been doing this for 15 years. I'm a slow learner, I'm kind of realizing that, but I'm also I'm like the tortoise, I'm slow, but I'm consistent. And you'll probably pick it up faster. Heather's picked up things way faster than I ever did. And, you know, that's just we have natural gifts and talents and tendencies. But that's all it ever is. And there's nothing different than I've been on a path for a longer time. So maybe I'm a little further ahead, which means I have a little more experience in the game. And I can look back and say, Hey, I just crossed that bridge, watch out for that I just stepped over that. You know, minefield careful of that. And is a really, this is this will be like something that's so simple that people will gloss over. But consider for a moment that when you're going through all that impostor syndrome, it's not imposter syndrome. Is your humility, that you're coming from it at your like center core that you think that maybe on one level, you have to lose that, and you don't. Always keep that that you're no better. No, I want you to be the best. Like, you don't have to be at best. You just need to remember that you have something that can offer something to somebody else and that's what we're all here to do. That's the law of dharma. I'm here to offer something, you can make a difference for somebody else. And you can just skip the rest of the BS that your, your ego and all those thoughts will feed. So I hope that offer sign makes sense. Did I say that well, Heather? Did that makes sense?

Heather Sager  

It's so beautiful. Because this is the place I mean, at every level in your business, right? You talk about different phases earlier. But there's different projects we work on, different things that we do, there's always going to be that piece where our competence is tested, right, where people start questioning. And I love that you brought up the word, humility. And I always talk about multiple episodes on this, around that this balance that we have to bring is this this balance between confidence and humility. I think it's a really critical part around building a business because people buy from those who are confident. But if you don't have the humility, people don't buy from you or they dodge the shit out of you. But when we're just leading with humble all the time and we lack confidence, equally, so people won't follow us or trust in our information. So really, looking at that as a beautiful thing that you need both in balance. I'm wondering, one of the things that I know a lot of people get stuck with is they get stuck in that planning mode, right of going like I don't know what my next step I don't know enough yet to be able to take action. And I know one of the big things you talk about is getting into action. So let's kind of connect the dots here around someone who's listening right now, regardless of what phase they're out on business. They're in that mode where they're not as far along as they want to be or they're wanting to make that next  move. Any recommendations for what they're good next step would be?

James Wedmore  

Absolutely, everything, this is changes everything. We've been doing this for years, every single 90 days. I have an outcome revenue oriented outcome goal. So we are about like in the middle, I guess of what, quarter to.

James Wedmore  

I mean, we're like we're one month ago,

James Wedmore  

A month ago? I'm like what, where are we? Oh, it's May okay, I'm like trying to work backwards here. But every 90 days, we have an outcome goal. And that's what you want to so it's a specific outcome goal. What is the revenue I'm doing in this quarter two or quarter three? So once you have a revenue goal, everything is worked backwards. Stephen Covey said begin with the end in mind. We want to work backwards from the end in mind. So that's the revenue goal for 90 days out. No more. Don't go 91 days. Don't be that person. That's the outlier that says well I need to I need to contradict my my coach here and do what I'm going to do 95 days like people do that. I don't know why they do that. Just trust the process until you get it down and then you can change it how you want. You work backwards easy. Now we need a plan to that revenue. And we want an elegant plan. The most simple plan and it is different for every person at every level but every plan that we're doing in 90 days is something that revolves around making an offer to our audience. And every offer becomes a launcher promotion. And so that's what a lot of business by design is, is it's the execution guides or processes for how to put an offer out there to the world. If you're selling one on one coaching, or the group program, or a course or membership, it ain't like selling iPhone cases on Amazon. You don't just take a picture of it and an add to cart button next to the price and get a few reviews and call it a day. It's a completely different ballgame. And we are always live or automated running campaigns that really revolve around three things, content offer and a deadline. And if you just started with that, I'm saying 30,000 foot view, because I don't want to get too much in the weeds here. But 90 Day revenue, outcome goal, create a plan, every single promotional plan has content that leads to an offer and a deadline. And if you use your content strategically to set up an offer of what it is that you're selling, and then gave people a window in which they could choose yes or no, you're off to the races. But instead, what are we doing, where we're going on Instagram, we're trying to come up with a post, and then we're gonna change it and it's not gonna happen, we post that and really had nothing to do with what you're selling, and then doesn't really talk about what you're selling. And you're hoping maybe people will like it, and then maybe they'll ask you if you're selling anything, and, and they're still not saying anything, but then they didn't like it. And they were like, Okay, I'll try that again. And then we get discouraged. And we're like, okay, maybe I should go to a Facebook group. And then we're just bouncing around. But there's no strategy for selling.

Heather Sager  

Yeah. 

James Wedmore  

And if you don't have a plan, a proven replicatable like I can do it again and again, and again, Sales Machine, system or strategy for selling your stuff on a consistent basis, then you're going to get into that content hamster wheel where I'm posting on Instagram. Now I'm on Facebook, Oh, this guy is saying Tiktok, and this person over here is getting on this. Oh, I probably do YouTube. But I should probably have a podcast too. And you're just like, doing all the things with no strategy. And the strategy is always how do I get people into my stuff. And then business becomes really, really simple. Attract your audience and sell them what they already want. And hopefully that will help focus people.

Heather Sager  

I think it's super helpful, because I think what you just described I think about is like the kick the sales bucket down the road. Like when I get my Instagram. 

James Wedmore  

Yes. 

Heather Sager  

It's constantly you're kicking the bucket? 

James Wedmore  

Oh, my gosh. 

Heather Sager  

Yeah, they're, we're not ready to sell, we're not ready to sell. And one of the beautiful things in that 90 day format you just talked about is no, you placed the flag in the ground and say that that is the thing like that is we're in business, we have to make money, we have to go from that moment and work backwards.

James Wedmore  

From hell or high water.

Heather Sager  

It's even if it's messy, y'all you got to do. 

James Wedmore  

It's gonna be messy.

Heather Sager  

 Yeah, it will be.

James Wedmore  

My sister. I did help her this time, because she's now done two launches. So my sister calls me yesterday. And she goes, it's my last call, as you saw at the text. And I said, well, what do you, what are you offering after that? What? I could do that? I'm like, yeah, because the monies aren't made on the back end and you now you have buyers, and they're gonna want to keep working with you. And so we came up with an offer. And it's so cool. And I said, Okay, here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna end your call, you're gonna say, and thank you so much that was the end of our call, you know, our final call together. And I just want to say thank you, blah blaj. I said, now, I'm going to pitch the program for it, I made the offer, and the offer is a two day retreat with her in Sedona, Arizona. So I'm going to do the offer. I'm going to pitch it. You're going to take whatever notes you can, but I just said, let's just like let it seep into the subconscious. And then I want you to do it, back to me. And I went through it. And guess what 90% of it is a story. It's the story of how she came up with the author. That's like 90% of it. She goes. So I know some of you have already reached out and said you want to you've said how do we keep working with you beyond this point. I really sat with that. And then of course, my brother who's, you know, business dude that he is. I talked to him and he helped me and he started to share an idea of what we both believe would be of greatest value. And first he said, what if you did something in person? I was like, that'd be amazing. What if it was a retreat? Yeah. What if it was in Sedona, Arizona? Oh, my gosh, James, that'd be amazing. Because you she teaches like a lot of spiritual topics. And then he told me, what if I gave you one of my Air BNBs so you could host it there. And then I was freaking out and then he said, What if I came and joined you and did a bonus session with your people? And then I was really freaking out. Really? You would do this? And he said absolutely, yes. And so that's exactly what I have for you. It's an invitation to join me for two days in Sedona, for an in person spiritual retreat, where we're going to talk about this, we're going to go through this, we're going to look at this, and boom, boom, boom, and my brother James is going to be a special guest there. And he's got some things he wants to share. And you guys can talk together and all that stuff. And so she shared the story. And then she made the offer. And the offer was so, so simple. It was like, so here's the price. I mean, it's so simple. She goes, here's the price. This is how much it is. She gives the price is like 1000 bucks, no brainer. She goes, now, you've all paid like 400 bucks to be here. If you join me today, and you're in, here are the dates, here's the information, here's everything you need. I'll let you apply what you paid in this program to come join me at the retreat. And, and that was it. She had no sales page, she had no links, she just said so if you're and so now it brings it down to like six something. Instead, if you're interested, just send me an email. I'll hook you up with the payment. We'll get it, we'll get it squared away this week, no sales page, there's no link, there's no nothing. And half the people are just send her an email within 10 minutes after the call and she's just freaking out. And that's why she sent that text. She's like, so excited. And I have no idea why I was telling that story. 

Heather Sager  

I don't remember either. But actually, it was okay. Actually, this brings me to one of the questions that I have to ask you. One of the things, you and I have a very similar skill set in this way. One, we're long winded talkers. But we're both very effective communicators in how we share stories. And one of the gifts that you have I have the same one is where you can take someone else's content and you can rattle back that sales pitch you did for your sister, or you can take someone's message and just pitch back for other people, which is a really special skill that gets me thinking about the skill of speaking, right? A lot of people hear you on on a podcast or on your  videos and such or they hear me and they think like, oh, I'm never gonna be that good. Or I'm just not like that. Can you just share for a moment your experience with I know you've always had a natural inclination to communication but you've really accelerated your voice, how you communicate? Can you just share a little bit of that? Because I know a lot of people listen, the show they're working on becoming more powerful speakers? And can you just give a little sense of hope to them that it is a learnable skill, because you and I both know it is.

James Wedmore  

So I'm like I said I'm not joking when I started with the like, so shyness that I couldn't even correct the teacher. When they've said my name wrong, you know, in college, all those frickin icebreaker things. When they're like, alright, well, first day of class, and we're gonna go around, and everyone's gonna introduce themselves where they're from, and something unique about yourself. 

Heather Sager  

I hate that. 

James Wedmore  

And I was like, okay. Okay, let's see, I went to Laguna Beach, okay. And I was like, try to memorize it in my head. And I would watch it every time and my hands would start shaking. And I'd be really nervous. I say this, because that's where I started. And when I look back, I would say there's two things. Number one, this is the most important thing is that when I really got that this is the business I want to be in, I really got how important communication is. Communication is the forgotten stepchild of billionaire skills. I mean, it's everything. Communication is everything, leadership, you know how you speak to your VAs, to get them to do their job, if you couldn't communicate effectively, they're not going to do it. And that's gonna affect the business, our audience, our customers, our students are how we teach everything. So I made it one of the most biggest priorities and everything because it's pervasive. I mean, it really is like fish water to a fish, communication, words and language, so I obsessed over it. And then practice what I when I look back, when I was doing my YouTube days, I was doing videos almost every other day. Just constant. There's hundreds of videos on my YouTube channel, and I got 600 podcast episodes, I don't know how many guest episodes I've been on. So I've logged the 10,000 hours of practicing how to take an idea or a concept and communicate it to others in a way that they'll get it. And what I would do and this is so, just keep creating content, just just, you know, no F's given just keep pumping out stuff. But here's the trick. You got to watch it. And this is what most people don't want to do, right? Or you got to listen to it. And I still do this to this day when I do an episode. First like someone else like I'll probably listen to this episode. And I will critique myself objectively not with full of shame and spite like, oh, you idiot. You're pathetic. Why did you do it that way? No, just like, Okay, I could have landed that better. I could have said that quicker. Why don't why to go on this tangent here. I could have just boom right and I'm just constantly so it's like a great football team in the locker room views the highlight reel. So I made it a priority and an intention to get better and better at it. But you can't get better at it if you're not looking at it yourself while also observing, how did it land for others? Is it getting feedback and engagement and comments and stuff like that so I just constantly getting better. And then of course you can get into there's, there's, I really loved grammar. And for whatever reason, in high school, I just like loved grammar, I love sentence structure. And I just really did, like fell in love with words and communication. I loved writing, I still love writing. And so when when you love all that, it makes it even easier. And there's so many tools and techniques and things that you can that you can learn. But I have like, I'm gonna do this in the group. So you're going to see this. But I wrote a piece of content. And this is this be really valuable. I know we're going long. And maybe you're like, gosh, James, 

Heather Sager  

We're good to. Keep me here as long as I can.

James Wedmore  

I was, so I love to teach a lot of effective like persuasive, influential copy, like how to use words to move people. And so going meta, I had a piece of content that I was writing down that I'm going to come up with, and that is around the tool of using specificity. So specificity is one of the most powerful tools to become a better communicator. Broad, general, wishy washy language doesn't land. But when you get really specific, it's so powerful. That's why in your stories, you get specific, you know. You'll notice when you re listen to this episode, it's just natural today. It's not like intentional, it was just natural. But I got really specific, like I'm sitting there, I can tell you where I stood, when my CPA told me the news over the phone. I dropped to my knees, and I got tunnel vision because that thought is going on loop in my mind, this is the end, I hope you enjoyed it. There's very specific, you know, visual imagery. So I wrote this blurb. And I really, this is going to be valuable to someone who's trying to like, get out of their head, the words that they need to use, so that other people will grab it. And I'm going to read a few sentences of this, okay. And this is, again, something very tactical. So I was talking about how to use specificity. So I wrote this blurb and says, Great thought leaders have this uncanny ability to communicate what their audience is thinking and feeling even better than their audience can can describe it themselves. And the moment you have the ability to do that you create a bond, a connection and a relationship. Because in that moment, you've proved you understand your people, that they are understood by you. And the way you can do that is through one word specificity. So that's what I started with. And then I said, Okay, now I have to make it great. So here's how I took that. And now made it effective communication. Here is one of the most powerful processes that you can use for building your audience and more importantly, getting people to pay attention and hang on your every word. And no, it's not some Tiktok trend or tactic. Actually, the tool you're about to learn, you can use anywhere. Yeah, you can use it on Tiktok, you can use on Instagram, Facebook, or you can use on a stage, you can use webinar, you can use it out on the street, you name it. But it starts with a single question. What do all great thought leaders all seem to have in common? Have you noticed that they have this uncanny ability to effectively articulate their current struggle or predicament, your current struggle or predicament? And they tend to be able to articulate it even better than you can yourself. Have you ever had that experience of listening to someone else? And you just say get out of my head or OMG, you just put the words to something that I've been going through for months. That's powerful, right? Imagine if you could do that as well. It's a simple practice. And when you do it, something magical happens. Now I took the same content, the same information. But notice what I did differently. Everything was about an intriguing and rolling question, instead of just saying, Hi, I'm James Wedmore. And have you used specificity in your communication? Right? Are you getting specific enough? No. Let's look at it again. Let me ask you a question. What is it that all effective thought leaders seem to have in common question, but I even answered it with another question. Well, have you noticed? That's a question that they all they all seem to have this uncanny ability to effectively articulate, and then I brought you into it your current struggle or predicament even better than you can. You know, and that's, that's like a dedication of have a commitment to improving how we communicate in a way that says the same content that 99% of other people might be saying, but you said it in a way that gets people to pay attention to lean in. They're intrigued. They're curious, they're interested. That's the other reason why we can't worry about competitors. Oh, someone else has been doing this longer, who cares? You're going to say it your way and you're going to learn to say it better. And just like you know with your story no one can have your story. So no one's gonna have your experience your story and say it the way you can. But it's also a skill. And when you're willing to learn these skills that changes everything. So I don't know Was that a good example to go for?

Heather Sager  

Yeah. Real geeky there with your but love it. l frickin love it. And here, here's the thing. I hear this, I see people say this, whenever you go on your rants on our coaching calls. I hear it, see this in the textbox that I see people saying the same thing and my sessions around like, ah, so good. Like, it's just come so easy to you're like, Oh, I wish like, I'll never be able to do that, or all these things. But what you just did, so many people are so conditioned, when we share information, they just go straight to well, specificity is important. Here are three tips for how to be more specific, and that that's normal. But what you just did, and I want people to hear this really like very, very clearly how you were talking about that's what you were talking about earlier around it is marketing language. It's learning how to think about your expertise in a different way. Of course, we don't speak like that. None of us were trained in that way. It's just a it's a very foreign skill. 

James Wedmore  

Yeah, it is. 

Heather Sager  

It is a learnable skill. And that's one of the things like I've always been very gifted in education, I've learned a ton of communication. Ironically, I've screwed up when I said that. I'm also very real when I communicate, but that piece around the like the marketing piece around how to get really good at positioning, what you talk about to get people to buy into your ideas is so freakin powerful. You're so good at it. But more importantly, you're really good at teaching others to do it. Like and that's I think that's a really, I think something really important to pay attention to is because you can teach it really well. That's one of the things that you created the Lego instruction on.

James Wedmore  

I did. True. And you know, I was like, yeah, it's marketing, but like, unfortunately, there's this is a loaded word with that. It's just like, No, it's not marketing. It's just, it's just talking in a way that people will actually pay attention

Heather Sager  

Basically, t's effective communication skills. So with this not sexy thing, right? When we talk about being effective communicators, people roll their eyes, right?

James Wedmore  

You know, what's even more unsexy is when you're talking to someone like a friend or whatever, you bump into someone on the street, and you can tell they're not even listening to you. 

Heather Sager  

Yeah. 

James Wedmore  

And we go, they're so rude. They're not even listening. It's like, Yeah, but you're probably being boring, you probably didn't hook them in and they don't care. You're just talking about your kids or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And instead, you could have said, okay, does your son Bobby do this? Because Joe has been doing this for like, the last six months, you know, now you now there. Yeah, you made it about them. What do you mean? And it's like this, this just ripples out everywhere in your life is like people are gonna listen to you because you have something worth listening to. And you're saying the same darn thing. You just said it in a way that gets them to want it.

Heather Sager  

Yeah, absolutely. I can geek out about that part about but it is one of the things that you you teach you're really good at. So sidenote, I want to give a plug that to you mentioned your podcast earlier. James has a ton of episode, I'm gonna link some of my favorites in the show notes. Because not only are you going to learn really powerful things from him, but you actually can hear him doing this exact thing that he just modeled in the way he communicates on his podcast. So I know, y'all love really good examples around how to put this into play. I want you to binge listen some of those episodes. But James coming up, we have a very special event happening that only happens once a frickin year. Let's talk about the rise of digital CEO.

James Wedmore  

Yeah, basically everything we've started to talk about. I do a three day training, it's live and I want to walk you through this, this whole process. It's really the one time a year where we go to our whole audience and say, This is how we built a business that we did. We've taken it over 11 million this year. And you know, I get it like we're doing running ads right now for it. And we got a ton of people registered last year, we had like 35,000 people, something like that go through and you know, you get people like all spammer, spammer have heard these things before. And I'm like, I know you have I totally, I totally get it. And I also because my content is so different. You tend to have people that are like, I don't know, this doesn't sound like everything else I hear you.

Heather Sager  

And actually MOFO. 

James Wedmore  

It's like gets here, it's like so different that it's like that doesn't sound right, that doesn't make any sense. But we've also been doing this for several years, you know, I first hit 1 million in the business in 2013. And then we've been at the eight figure mark, I think for four years now. And that's where we want to stay like I'm not looking to like, go go crazy, you know, and I only say that because when you go through this, it's going to feel really counterintuitive. And I just want people to like, hopefully like pay attention to who the messenger is that's sharing the messenger so you can trust the process a bit more because it is a different approach and way of thinking about business, because a lot of what you're learning business from, sadly, is just from an entrepreneur, and that's great. But when you learn it with the business equation, it's not just about learning things anymore. It's about putting it into action and getting results. There's no way you can get the results you want without action. And how well we do that action, who's doing that action, the level of effectiveness and performance of that action is what we're going to be talking about. So you're not just gonna get a strategy, but you're gonna get the structure around how we've been able to do that. And it's just, it is a very different approach. But it's lights me up because it's, it's what changed my whole business. And that was that pivotal moment where it was like, I don't think I can do this anymore, but obviously, if I was losing money, it wasn't gonna keep going that route for very long. And I wouldn't be here today, if I didn't learn what I learned, and what you're about to learn as well. So we call it the Rise of Digital CEO, because it's stepping into the role that your that your business needs. And the role that you fill determines the results that you'll receive. You hang out in your, you know, your Twitter or customer support role all day, you're probably not going to make a lot of money. But if you start stepping into the role that the revenue producing roles of the business, and spend more time there you will, and we're going to show you how to do that.

Heather Sager  

Yeah, I'm, frickin stoked for it. I go through this every single year, because I look at this as an event to get out of the routines that we all fall into, right? So we go down the rabbit holes of content creation, or I don't know, we just get used to certain things. And what this is really an event that allows you to snap back into what am I want? What am I working on? And most importantly, how do I need to show up to get to that level? So I would invite anyone who's thinking about joining us, join us over I will put the link in the show notes here, you can head over to heathersager.com/digitalCEO, and you can get all the details for that. But I'm gonna be there live, and we talk about it for the next few weeks. You guys can join us on there. James, I'm so appreciative of you sharing so much today. I say that in a funny way, but also a very honest way. Sharing so much.

James Wedmore  

Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, I love it. And it's, it's a joy. And it's really, you know, listen, I do a lot of podcasts. And it's a certain people when you come together creates like a different resonance or a different frequency that shares something different. So it's also a testament to you and what you've created of what gets shared and what paths and avenues we get to go down. So thank you for pulling out some really cool stuff that hopefully your listeners will not just enjoy, but find valuable as well.

Heather Sager  

I just want to say, William James you're so welcome.

James Wedmore  

William James the third. 

Heather Sager  

Oh, this is so great. It's the first of many appearances of having you on this show. 

James Wedmore  

Okay, we need to do an episode. Yeah, it's just an hour of geeking out on like some of the stuff you're, like more effective communication pattern.

Heather Sager  

I would love that. I would absolutely love that. So y'all heard it, he put it on record. That's a thing so that will be happening. 

James Wedmore  

And I know her VA so I can get this edited out.

Heather Sager  

Amazing, thank you. Y'all get your tickets to the rise of digital CEO. You're going to absolutely love it. We'll see you there. And thank you all so much for listening and we'll see you real soon. Take care!