When It’s Time to Pivot: A Real Talk with Ellen Yin [Spring Refresh Series]

Episode 2 of the Spring Refresh Series

This week's episode of The Ramble Refinery is your permission slip to pivot boldly and follow your curiosity.

I pulled one of my fave throwback interviews with the brilliant Ellen Yin, founder of Cubicle to CEO out of the vault—and it could not be more relevant for anyone feeling a little burn-it-all-down-but-make-it-strategic about their business.

You’ll hear:

• What it really means to pivot with purpose (hint: it’s not about starting from scratch)
• How Ellen went from six-figure clients to $500 courses—and scaled it in 90 days
• The power of sharing your business numbers publicly (and how it builds trust)
  Behind-the-scenes of building a media brand that runs on content and connection
• Balancing hustle and rest—and how to know which season you’re in
• Why starting over doesn’t actually mean starting over

Whether you’re navigating changes in your biz or secretly dreaming about a refresh, you’ll love Ellen’s refreshingly real take.

EPISODE  SHOW NOTES👇
https://heathersager.com/episode239

Transcript

Heather (00:12)
Welcome back to another episode of the Ramble Refinery. I'm your host, Heather Seger, and we are in our Spring Refresh series. It's the month of May all month long. We are tackling episodes, talking about refreshes, pivots, updates, evolving in our businesses. Because the one thing that we know to be true is that we are like growers and movers and changers of all of the things, especially in online business.

Right, things change over time and we have a tendency to get bored and tired of our offers. We have a tendency to get bored and tired of our marketing, of our branding, of whatever else in the series is one to help you not like frogger hop from thing to thing to thing because if you're constantly always redoing and recreating, you are not gonna grow your business at the pace that you want, my friends. So it's all about strategic.

and intentional evolution and growth. So the series, hopefully for you, I'm encouraging you to think about questions, to ponder on, ask yourself, to really make sure that the change is strategic, it's intentional, and it's for a reason. And it's not just because the change of the season is making you want to burn everything down and rebuild. If you missed last week's episode, the kickoff of the series, I definitely would go back and start there.

I talk a little bit about the topic and some of the reflection questions that I really think are important for all of us as business owners to ask ourselves frequently, especially when we get that itch to want to make changes in our business. Now, behind the scenes, I am currently working on some very large updates in my business and I can't wait to tell you all about them at the end of the month. I'll probably start talking about them if you're on my email list, probably very soon.

So you'll probably get a little insider there and then officially everything at the end of the month in the last episode of May. Can't wait to pull you in and talk through it. I, as I've talked about many times, so many changes in my life over the last three years and I'm making some very intentional shifts to make sure that my business is supporting my current life and vice versa. So.

I'm excited about it. Hopefully you'll be excited to hear about it. And I hope that it'll encourage you to make some big bold moves and ask yourself some tough questions. But the next three episodes, including today, I wanted to have some real conversations with other business owners around pivots and changes that they have either been making here recently or that they've made in their business to hopefully inspire you.

to either do the same or just maybe feel a little bit less alone in this whole, let's it all burn it down kind of thing. Okay, so today's conversation, let's jump into it. I had planned on interviewing a guest for this episode and I, to be perfectly frank, I could not get my shit together and get it done in time and now here we are. So three days ago, my assistant Dorothy and I were sitting down going through, okay, how are we gonna tackle this?

And we realized, oh my gosh, we have an incredible interview that I did about a year, a year and a few months ago. And that would be the perfect, perfect conversation to pull into 2025 to kick off the interview of this series. So today is going to be a throwback episode where we've clipped our favorite parts of my interview with Cubicle to CEO founder, Ellen Yin. She hosts the like,

most incredible podcast called Cubicle the CEO. She runs a media company. She teaches people about what used to be known for visibility as we talk about in the episode. But what I love about this specific interview that Ellen and I did is we talked about her having the curiosity and the courage to completely pivot her company from being an education company to a media company, which I'm sure people thought she was crazy to do it. I'm sure she thought she was a little cuckoo town to do it, but she knew she had to make that pivot.

and we talk about the driving decisions behind it. So this episode is about a business model shift. We get into a couple of conversations with Ellen. By the way, if you listened to this when it first came live, it was when I had named the show, Hint of Hustle. The very first episode on Hint of Hustle was with Ellen. So we tried to clip out anything that had referenced the show, Hint of Hustle. But if that comes up, that's the background on that.

But I wanted to dive in with her on a couple of things. Ellen had come and I interviewed her at my live event back in 2022. And in the conversation, she was just so real of talking about like the realities of business growth and making decisions. And one of the things I love about Ellen is she's always had a financially transparent business. So for years, she did what she called the income report, actually shared.

her profit and loss statement and actually went over her numbers, which as at the time a growing entrepreneur, it was really helpful to hear someone's real numbers. Someone's real like, okay, here's how I'm spending my money and here's how I'm bringing in money and here's how the chips fall. So I just thought that was really helpful. So I love the fact that she's so real. She doesn't try to marketize or glorify struggles in business. She talks about the realities of it and...

She also is very good with data. So I think you're going to love this conversation. Pay attention. If you caught the original episode in January of 2023, might encourage you to re-listen to this one. If you're already skipping going, I already heard that one. Friend, how annoyed do you get when you have somebody sit in the front of the room, right? If you're teaching a class or a workshop and they're just going, I already know all this. I've already learned all that.

That's where we combat them. Remember last week we talked about my favorite freaking phrase, just because it's common sense doesn't mean it's common practice quoted by Will Rogers. I freaking love that. And so here's just your reminder is sometimes you need to hear messages multiple times. And for one, for them to land, but two, they're going to meet you at a different cross-section in your life where you have different things top of mind for yourself right now. So the message is just going to hit differently. So I can't wait.

to hear what you take away from this particular interview. So be sure to send me a direct message on Instagram, but without further rambling, let's jump into my interview with Ellen Yen.

Heather (06:58)
I have so many questions for you around how you have built such an incredible

incredible brand and incredible community, I know people are just going to love love today. So let's step back. my first question is can you share with our guests are our people of the show are people at the show. We probably should come up with a better name to phrase that ⁓ share with everyone. What do you think you're known for?

is a really solid question. I got to give you credit for that. My answer for right now, I think, is I'm known for my education specifically around visibility. I think that people tend to ask me questions around this topic, which is funny because all of my courses have always been centered in marketing. But for some reason, visibility kind

cropped up as the theme that people come to me for. However, that said, I don't think that is my true vision of what I want to be known for in the long term as an entrepreneur. ⁓ You know this behind the scenes, Heather, with the pivots that we've gone through recently in our business model. But right now, think because we're still in that newer stage, people do still very much see me in that kind of coach or educator aspect, whereas

I would like to be more like media mogul. That's my vision. So yeah, that's my short answer to a complex question. So the media mogul thing, tell me about, okay, so I'm going to tell an embarrassing thing. I remember listening to a podcast five years ago and someone kept referencing themselves as a media company. And I remember thinking, I'm a smart person. I should know what this means. And then Googling that and I still couldn't find the answer. So Ellen, this vision of a media mogul, like what?

What is that? Tell us the vision. want to be a part of this. Well, so you're not alone. think almost every person I've ever talked to when I say, we have a media company, their mind goes in one of two places. One, they go where you went and go, I'm not really sure what that means. Or they immediately assume, you have social media accounts and you're a social media manager. And I'm like, quite. So basically, the easiest way to describe what a media company is

is to give you an example of a traditional media company. So think of networks like NBC, ABC, Fox, think of companies like Disney or your favorite radio shows, your favorite magazines, right? Forbes magazine, Oprah magazine, ⁓ I don't know, Seventeen, like when you were a teenager. Cosmo Quiz. exactly. If you think of any sort of business where

Content is their primary product. they make a lot of, ⁓ it doesn't have to be all of their revenue, but usually ad revenue is a large portion of how they generate money as a business. Those are media companies in the traditional sense. In the digital age we currently live in, media companies can be podcasts, media companies can be newsletters, media companies can be online blogs.

There's so many different forms of content these days. And so really a media company is any company where the primary product is content. And usually for the audience that's consuming the content, they either are not paying any money to access that content or something, you know, fairly low. And the revenue really is coming from the sponsors who are placing their ads on that content. Yeah. Okay. Very beautifully said. That makes, that makes so much sense. And going from interesting reading magazines growing up, had a poster of Jonathan Taylor Thomas from

bop on my wall, age myself, 80s baby. ⁓ But love it. That makes sense. We just in a different world for how content is produced. I'm curious, going back to you, I you on the spot and said, what are you known for? When you started your business, what did you think was going to be your thing? Did you have these visions of media company, have these visions of doing visibility? Did you know what that was? Like, what was your initial intention when you launched your company? Great question. So no, I

am an accidental entrepreneur in every sense of the word. When I quit my corporate job, I was only 23. I did it a couple of days before Christmas. I had no backup plan. I had nothing on my calendar. My parents were not pleased with my decision. I always thought my next step was to... So Heather and I both live in Oregon. And at the time I was living in my hometown of Corvallis. So I thought, I'll move to Portland. It's a bigger market. I'll apply for some jobs there.

my professional background is in marketing. So I thought I would just apply for, I don't know, another marketing coordinator role at some business and move up the rung, as they say. ⁓ And that obviously did not end up happening. ended up, so I quit like end of December, January, I was still applying for jobs, had a few interviews. And then it was like right at the tail end of that month, beginning of February that I landed my first freelance marketing client. So

I was hired to help them with their Instagram account. And at that point, I still don't know if I, I wouldn't say I had a vision for myself. It was more so I realized that there was another way for me to generate income that wouldn't rely on a traditional job structure. And I was excited by that possibility. So I thought, why not dive into this and see if I could get a couple more clients? Because if I can replace what I would have anticipated making

as a corporate salary, I would much rather be doing this on my own. So that's kind of what started me down that path. So I did start as a freelance marketer, as a social media manager, but I would not say that my intention was for that to be my whole life and my career. I've always been kind of that person where if I see an opportunity and I'm curious about it, I will follow that path and I don't have to see the whole path for me to walk down that path. So that's kind of where I started.

Okay, I love that piece that word curious. I say it a lot. You say it a lot. I want to dig into that. I think entrepreneurs oftentimes undervalue how powerful curiosity can be. Can you talk to me about your relationship? Have you always been a curious person or has that shifted? A thousand percent. I always said, like, you know, growing up, I had no intention of being an entrepreneur. Quite frankly, I'm not really sure. I actually distinctly remember even in high school, they offered

in our curriculum, there was these ⁓ elective classes that you could choose that were business oriented. And this is going to sound silly, but I honestly didn't understand what a business class was. was like, I'm not really, is it like a form of math? Like, I'm not really understanding, what are you doing in this class exactly? So that's how little exposure I feel like I really had to this concept of being an entrepreneur. That said, I've always been very entrepreneurial in spirit without, you know, ⁓

consciously recognizing it because of curiosity. So yes, I've always been curious as a child. I've always asked a lot of questions, always had that kind of mentality of, if something seems interesting to me, like one of the early examples I can remember is being a kid. And I loved reading, loved books, loved fiction. And I remember always looking forward to the scholastic book fairs that would come to school. ⁓ And so I kind of went down this path where I was like, okay, so like, I really love reading these books. I wonder how these books are made.

How do they get published? How do these authors become, you know, authors? And so I would just like scour this scholastic website, trying to find a place where you could submit writing to be published. And I actually remember in sixth grade, I submitted something to, think Writers Digest, and it ended up like getting published on their website for something. It doesn't surprise me at all. You were a media company before you knew you were a media company. Exactly. yeah, curiosity has always been a force, I think, in my life.

When you look, you know how they say like that Steve Jobs quote? I was just thinking that quote. was literally just thinking that quote. Okay, same wavelength. Yeah, so for those of you not familiar with the quote, it goes something like, you can't connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backward. So when I was moving forward through life, no, I don't think I had this vision of being a media company someday. But looking back, it actually makes complete sense because writing was always my first love. And then when I went to college originally, I

went to college with the intention of majoring in broadcast journalism because I thought my career path was to anchor the evening or morning news at some local, I don't know, TV station or work in entertainment news. So because of that recurring theme throughout my life, it's unsurprising now when I look back and see the work that I'm doing today. But like I said, it was not a clear cut path from the get go.

I think that's a theme though for any entrepreneur who has these stories of resiliency. One of the things I really admire about your story, we'll talk about this in a moment, is your ability to ⁓ iterate. And ⁓ this is a weird phrase, but like rebirth and redesign how you show up and what you're teaching. I want to talk about that, but it is just so interesting because think about for those listening, maybe who are earlier on in their entrepreneurial journey, when we're early on, everything feels so permanent. Very soon.

learn that it's not. Tell me about like the first time that you really realized that what you built was all going to change in a hot minute. Like did you have that moment? Yeah, I did. I think most of the things in my life, it's I, when I look through my life, I don't necessarily think there was like a catalyst where it's like, because this event happened, like, this was the straw that broke the camel's back that I made me quit my job or something like it's never something like that. It's just a kind of that.

gnawing feeling under the surface where you're like, have to do something about this, I have to take action on it. But when I decide to take action, it is very abrupt and very all or nothing on paper. Like when people look at it, they're very shocked by why I would make the decision I would make. for example, like the first iteration of that in my business was like I mentioned, I started out as a social media manager.

I very quickly grew my client base and we were operating as kind of like a boutique agency somewhere around the middle of 2019. so 95 % of my revenue at that point came in from clients. I think I was making maybe at most $500 a month from a digital program that had launched. It was my first ever coaching digital course type of program that had launched.

On paper, when you look at that, it would not make any sense for me to cut off a six figure revenue stream that I made from my done for you marketing clients in exchange for $500 a month in established income from digital courses. But there was something that just really made me feel like this is where I need to be. I really feel passionate about education. I really think that if I cut my safety cord with my clients,

it will force me to give this arm of my business, the education of my business, the time and resources and energy that it deserves and that it needs to actually scale and thrive. So I made that drastic decision. actually let go of all but one of my clients toward the end of 2019. This was around October. I remember I joined a program of a friend of mine's and this program specifically helps you set up like an evergreen webinar funnel.

I gave myself 30 days and I said, okay, the next 30 days, the only thing you're going to do is set up this evergreen webinar funnel. And then we're going to see what happens. within 90 days of that decision, when I let go of all my clients and spend all this time setting up my webinar funnel, we had taken that $500 a month product and it had hit a $10,000 monthly recurring revenue run rate. And at that point I was like, okay, I'm onto something. I can, I could do this. I can scale this. can add more. And so that's what I spent the next

you know, two, two and a years doing right up until this summer, the summer of well, now last summer, I guess we're in 2023. So I guess mid summer 2022. What is time? What is time? We're only one week into the new year. So, you know, a little grace, but my second big iteration happened this past summer when, know,

At this point, had really been in the education space for, like I said, two, two and a half years. We had served over 10,000 students in our programs and courses, and this was going really well. I think teaching and creating clarity for people is something I will always love and I will always want to do in some form. But I really felt like I was being boxed into this like coach hat or coach.

persona online and that wasn't, that didn't feel aligned with what I actually really wanted to create and for that to be my, I guess like my life legacy or my business legacy. So once again, I made kind of a drastic decision. My largest revenue generator for the last three years was my 12 month mentorship program. I decided to launch it one final time and I closed the doors in August, cut that arm of my business, basically cut almost everything that we had been selling.

⁓ And we started over. looked and said, okay, we want to be a media business. So what does that mean? We have to go and figure out how to build brand new infrastructure for getting sponsors. We have to figure out how we're going to produce quality content, add in other product arms. We have to redo all of our systems. So that's kind of where you're finding us at this moment in time is we're going through that process and still very green to it. Yeah. Real talk. How's it going? You know, it is

I'm grateful. And this is something actually that I think is worth hearing for your listeners. Like Heather said, in entrepreneurship, most of our decisions are not permanent. If something doesn't work out, you can always go back to what was working before. In the same vein, I think it's important to remind anyone listening that just because you completely change industries, niches, careers, whatever it may be, it doesn't erase everything that you've done up to that point. Right? So it's like when you leave corporate and you become an entrepreneur,

A lot of people almost have this weird mentality where they, it's kind of like they write off everything they've ever done in their lives before. And they're like, well, I'm brand new to business, therefore I know nothing and I have nothing. But that's not true, right? The connections that you've built up, the skillsets that you have, the resources, all these things still come with you and you can still leverage them to build momentum. So.

It's hard, I'm not gonna lie. Like it is very hard to start over in an industry that I'm not an expert in and trying to learn everything and being the newbie again. But it doesn't mean that I started over from ground zero, right? I'm still riding the momentum of all of the connections that I've built in this online space for the last five years. All of our amazing, loyal.

customers and community members who have been with me on this journey from day one and are still with us today. All of the amazing friends I've made like you Heather, none of these things just evaporate because I decided to change direction. And I think that's important for your listeners to hear that if you are called to go in a different direction, don't discount everything that you've done up until this point. You can take it with you. I would like to drop the microphone, but I do not want to buy another microphone, so we won't do that. That's so

So friggin' good and it's so necessary. think, well, a couple things we talk about. One is that we think so often that choices are so permanent. Very few things are permanent, right? Like even tattoos anymore. Evidently laser hair removal is like the number one, whatever body treatment, right? So very few things are. We need to be a little riskier with our choices. Take more, try more things to figure out what our thing is. But what you just said around that foundation we built,

I think it's so funny how in this entrepreneur space, how many people call themselves newbies and identify with that role. And nobody's coming in new. We all have series of life skills, whether you're starting at 23, like when you started in this space or somebody, people in my program who are in their seventies are just getting quote unquote started in this space. We all have life experience to bring in and you get to choose whether or not you're going to put the badge of I know nothing or

say, I know lots of things, but I'm also learning and growing in these new ways. So I just love, I just love how you phrased that. That was just really, really beautiful. So thank you. Thank you. No, thousand percent. I think we have to give ourselves so much more credit. Yeah, it's sad. Let's talk about your relationship with the word hustle. I know a lot of people are a little charged up by that word. People love it, they hate it.

Everybody's got an opinion on it. I'm curious. What is your relationship with the word hustle? I think I've had a very evolving relationship with that word. I think when I first started out in business, I was very attracted to this idea of hustle because it was, it felt like something you could control, right? Like some measure of your ability to show up and do the work and in saying, okay, if I want this badly enough, I can do anything. And part of that,

is certainly ingrained, I think, in my upbringing as a first generation American, as an immigrant to this country, right? That's very common in immigrant stories of you come to a new country with nothing. You do start over from from the ground up. And there is that sort of underdog kind of mentality where where you feel like I can I can do this. I can accomplish anything if I put my mind and my heart to it. Now, as time went on,

And I was in year two, year three or four, you know, of this online business space. started to resent that word because then I felt, my goodness, like now that I'm really deep in this, I see how pervasive and how toxic it can be to hustle at all costs. And I also started as I became more aware and, and, you know, invested in education and mentorship and just kind of grew as a person. realized, wow.

I attach a lot of my self-worth to how hard I can work, to that work ethic. And I feel like I'm more valuable as a person if I do more, achieve more, accomplish more. And so then I started to resent that word because I was like, it's this false narrative of your worth somehow being tied to the work that you do and this belief that things have to feel hard for them to be worthy. But then,

Again, as I continue growing, growing, growing, evolving, I think my relationship with this word has changed again. And now I feel like I sit in this kind of place where, and this is why I was so excited when you came to me with the concept of your show, Heather, because I feel like I'm so aligned with exactly how you view hustle in the sense of hustle is a necessary form of work for certain seasons to accomplish certain things, but it is

not sustainable as a long-term approach and the only approach that you take to business. And so I think it's a complicated relationship with this word, but I think I've come to appreciate just like anything, just like any other tool in the world, money, right? Money gets a bad rap in a lot of ways. It's not the thing itself, hustle itself, money itself is neither good nor bad. It is how we utilize it.

as people, as entrepreneurs and the meanings that we attach to it that can have positive or negative impacts on our life. Yeah. Okay. I love, I love that piece. And I think we all have our own variation of that journey. I'm not on a mission to make everyone fall in love with the idea of hustle, but I look about like a couple of analogies come to mind for me. There's a, like the strength training analogy around, I know I saw you getting back into weightlifting girl. I'm paying attention on your stories.

but the muscle only strengthens and grows under tension. And that's something that I really want people to hear. It's one of my missions on the show is for us to assume that our businesses are gonna grow without any form of effort is just like a weird pipe dream in my opinion, right? And part of why I felt the need to create this show is I quite frankly was sick of hearing these narratives online around how...

easy and free and blah, blah. When every entrepreneur who has an established brand, who is making money that can sustain the kind of life that they want, there is hustle behind the scenes. So let's talk about that for a moment. I love this concept of taking a peek in the backstage. One of the things that I am just very curious about with you is it seems like you are everywhere.

Right? know if you have a team behind you, have things, but you're on, right? You were just speaking tomorrow. You're speaking every month with Kajabi for workshops. You just ran a panel with some of your business friends. You're on your podcast. Your podcast has so many downloads. You are showing up everywhere. Tell me a little bit about the...

Are you actually on all these places all the time? Do you have a team behind you? What is the behind the scenes look like and what does life look like for you in this season? Are you in hustle? Are you in ease? What is this? What's the, give me the backstage pass girl. Yes. Okay. my gosh. There's so many things I could share on this. I think for me to accurately answer this, am, mean, Heather, you know this about me. I believe in the power of context. I never share anything without giving context because I feel like

you can make so many wrong assumptions. So I feel like it's important to my answer to share where it started. When I entered the online business space, you may be surprised to learn that the first two years of my business, I had no website presence. I would post on Instagram maybe a couple of times a month. And keep in mind, we built that into a six figure business with very little forward facing content, right?

I think the one thing that I did right from the beginning is that I've always had that build in public mentality, which I don't think is right for every type of business and every entrepreneur. It kind of depends on your strengths. But for me, piece of it, always disclosing from the very beginning, I've always been very transparent about the finances in my business, bringing people in with me on that journey by sharing my income reports and all of these things. Because of that, I feel like I've fostered a very deep

connection with my community that has followed us through all of these different iterations of our business. But in terms of volume, no, I certainly was not on every platform. And quite frankly, even the platform that I was on Instagram, I was not posting with any sort of frequency or consistency that I held myself to. And to be honest, even to this day, the only platform I have ever truly stuck to

a schedule or given myself any sort of parameters around, we have to show up or like I should show up is my podcast. That is the only project where I'm like every single Monday, you can expect that if you come to our show, there will be an episode. And we have committed to that for three and a half years now, and it's not changing. But outside of that on social, anything else, I've always been that kind of person that's like, if I feel like posting, if I have a moment of inspiration, I want to share something, I'll do it.

But if I also want to take like 30 days off and not post anything, I don't really feel any sort of like pressure or guilt around that. So this omnipresence or like visibility that you may experience on the other side, I think is more a result of compounding efforts than a, ⁓ like an intention to actually post everywhere all the time and do all the things.

⁓ And I think a huge piece of that too is very much focused in relationships. And what I mean by that is throughout all these years of building this business, I think it's all of my friendships and connections that I've made over the last five years, the private one-on-one relationships that I've made behind the scenes in DMs, on Zoom calls, at events and networking meetings. Those are the things that have allowed me to be presented with the opportunities to get on big stages like

collaborating with Kajabi or speaking at like your conference at the Speaker Co or all these other things that I've done that make it look like I'm everywhere doing all the things. But in reality, I don't think that's my truth in terms of ⁓ content output. Yeah. Okay. I love you. Thank you for being honest on that one. ⁓ tell me how many I'm curious, how many hours do you work each week? Is that like a do you have like a consistent schedule or does that ebb and flow based around what's on your plate?

I think it definitely ebbs and flows. I'm not gonna lie. I'm not one those entrepreneurs. I've never been one of those entrepreneurs that's like, I work 20 hours a week and it's quite easy and it's like four hours a day and I'm done. That's just not who I am. And it's interesting that you mentioned, ⁓ Heather, that you kind of felt a little bit inspired to create this show based on this narrative that everything's so easy all the time, which I think ease is certainly something that we should.

implement and aspire. And I think rest is essential. Like even going back to your weightlifting analogy, the muscle grow or it can only strengthen under tension and your muscle literally being torn. But the only way you actually grow mass and weightlifting is through rest. Your body needs that sleep and that recovery period, or else you're actually going to make no gains, which is interesting. And I actually say this with a degree in exercise science. I, I do think that there has been a narrative

built over the last two years especially, because I feel like the industry kind of swung so far into that hustle culture. And then it kind of swung so far back in the other way of the anti-hustle culture that it's almost like there's this shame around this conversation of, if I work more than 20 hours a week, or if I work even more than 40 hours a week, let's say like what is considered full-time in America, that means I'm not doing something right. Like I am a.

bad entrepreneur, a bad leader, I don't know how to manage my time, I'm not productive enough, whatever it is. And I want to really challenge that concept because I do my schedule does ebb and flow. There are some weeks where I've worked more than 60 hours, right, or maybe even 80 hours. But there are also weeks where I worked two hours. And so it just depends on what is going on. And I think that as soon as we start to box ourselves in, that's where

the problems come. And I also think that you have to remember that the way you view work as an entrepreneur may not match up with everybody else in your day-to-day life. Like if you have a lot of friends who work, let's say in traditional jobs, yeah, for them, expecting an employee to work an 80-hour week is unreasonable and I think likely not very, what is the word? ⁓ Not very ethical, right?

For you as an entrepreneur, if work is actually a hobby for you or like a passion and you feel fulfilled, like it's fun for you to do, there, tell Dustin, my fiance, this all the time. like, I know it's weird. was like, but sometimes I, there's literally nothing I'd rather be doing than working. Cause it's actually just fun for me. And I think as long as you keep that energy and you're very mindful of like, is this feeling like fun to me or is this feeling just like resistance? If it's fun.

Lean into that and don't let what society shares with you about like, it should look a certain way. Just go with whatever feels right for you in that moment. This is so beautiful. And I think this taps into the gift that we have as entrepreneurs is we don't have to do the same thing over and over again. Now, side note, offers, niching down, getting your shit together. That's like another story. But when it comes to our our time and how we show up, like I am a huge fan of going through seasons.

I can't remember if we've talked about, are you into human design? I am very interesting, curious, that word again about it, but I'm not an expert. I'm not an expert by any means. Emily, my business partner for SpeakerCo, she turned me on to human design when we were in discussions for our partnership last spring. And it was like this beautiful fortune between us to understand each other. But the takeaway I have from that is I've learned that I'm a manifestor in human design.

that helps me understand that I am, what is it called? A something hermit, where I am like outwardly all the time, but I'm also the person who needs to be alone and Netflix and go to the beach by myself or go to the movies by myself or dinner by myself or lock myself in the pantry away from my children if we're in lockdown. All the things like I.

I have this need that I'm still guilty about around like, I should be want to be with my kids or I should want to be doing something. And I, physically can't like, need to have my alone space and that entrepreneurship kind of ebbs and flow. Yeah. Do you find yourself like it, when you think about recharging, mentioned Russ earlier, do you find yourself like planning time off? Do you naturally take time off throughout the day? Like how does that show up for you when you're like, do you wait until you're like totally burned out?

What's rest look like for you in your business? That's a great question. I think it's looked different at different points in my business. I think I'm not a person who on a day-to-day basis blocks out time for rest. I'm not that person that's like every day at 12, I go and meditate for 30 minutes or something. I just never been. I'm the person who blocks it out and never does it.

So we're kind of like, yeah, we're not good with that, obviously, or it's not, it doesn't maybe match with our natural strengths. ⁓ I would say though, that if I really feel like I've hit a wall where it's like, can't, like I can't, my brain is not functioning the way that I need it to, I allow myself that rest without feeling like bad about it. So I think...

that's kind of more on an as native basis, but I do on the flip side, I do actually plan chunks in terms of like weeks of time off. So for example, like for the last couple years, every December, I've taken at least two weeks off, sometimes more in terms of a hiatus. When I go on vacation, generally, those are like the times when I work maybe like one to two hours during the entire vacation, I'll like check my inbox and see if there's like anything that I.

want to respond to. But other than that, it's kind of just like out of sight out of mind. So I definitely have scheduled in breaks, but it's more on a large scale rather than like day to day routines. Yeah, I'm really similar in that way, right? I have to be intentional about planning vacation for

Me, I'm now in the world where I have my kids are at school age. And so we actually have a defined schedule, which is a whole new thing. But the, I'm the same way I would love the idea of to have planned rest throughout the day. It's just, I don't work that way. When I get excited, I want to work and here we go. Did you mention before, did you used to feel guilty about resting and taking kind of that mid week or when you feel like it time off or. Yeah, for sure. And I think it's not something that.

is still fully, ⁓ what is word, fully healed in me because so much of my story and beliefs growing up tied achievement to worth. It is very, I still struggle sometimes when I don't, okay, let me back up for a second. I do not struggle when I enter the day with the intention that I'm not going to work. Like if I'm on vacation, for example,

Like when I was in Mexico for Thanksgiving with my family, I felt zero guilt about doing absolutely nothing during that week because I, that was my intention. Like I entered into that vacation knowing I was not going to work. The only times I feel like I struggle still with that guilt and it's something I'm still working through is when I actually sit down to do work. Like it's a work day and I'm planning to work, but my focus is scattered and I'm kind of all over the place. You're like, my energy is low or whatever. There could be a myriad of reasons.

and I don't end up getting the things done that I had wanted to get done. And then I get down on myself because I'm like, my God, like I'm so distracted today. Like, ⁓ I did this again. And it feels like a wasted day to me. So those are the times when, if I'm being very frank, I do still struggle, I think, with those feelings of unease or guilt, but never when it's like the intention is to not work. Yeah. I think that I think a lot of people relate to that.

piece, right? It's really easy when it's kind of pre-plan and vacation if we want to be in that mode, although sometimes we struggle with that too. But that listening to what we need in the moment, especially when deadlines are looming, that is hard. Thank you for being real on that one. Okay, this is my favorite question of all the questions. Are you ready for it? I am. I'm so ready. All right, if you had to go back and do it all again, what would you repeat? And what would you remix?

I as in like, you know, DJ remix, what would you do? my goodness.

I feel like any sort of like time travel questions I always struggle with because I feel like it's kind of that like that idea of the multiverse that if you go back and change any one thing in your life, it sets you on a completely alternate path, right? So you never would have ended up where you are today. And I'm actually very happy and grateful for where I am today. So there's a part of me that's like, I wouldn't change anything because if I did, I wouldn't be right here right now talking to you, right?

But in the same vein, if I'm looking more at it from the perspective of hindsight and wisdom, ⁓ think that I would have been more focused on the big picture goal earlier. I think there were

definitely a lot of moments in my business building journey in my first five years. And we were just talking before we hit record that entrepreneurship can feel like dog years where like one year is, you know, a million lives because a lot can change. So I say this with a grain of salt, understanding that in the grand scheme of things, five years in your career, especially your first five years as an entrepreneur is not actually that long. And there are people who have been in business for decades. So I get that. But even so, I feel like

There were many seasons in my business where I did something because I was successful at it. For example, like, you know, I was good at services. It was easy for me to attract clients and get contracts and social media accounts. So I did it. But the whole time I was doing it, there was, I knew that that wasn't like, if you had to sit me down and say, do you see yourself being a social media manager 10 years from now? Like the obvious answer was no, but it was hard to let go of it because

I'm good at it. And I think that's something that is not talked about enough. It's really easy to quit on things ⁓ when you're not good at something, right? Cause it's like, well, obviously just let it go. But when you actually are good at something, you get into that golden handcuffs scenario where it's like, it's the same reason people don't leave high paying corporate jobs, even if they're miserable, because it's like you've locked yourself in this golden prison where you're really good at what you do and you're paid well for it. And so it feels much more difficult and much,

more confusing to those around you if you choose to leave a good situation than if you choose to leave a bad one. So I think that would be my remix is I would have probably shifted focus earlier and I would have just really gotten clear on what that is. And my repeat would be all of the connections that I've made and the intention behind making those relationships both local and online. That's something I wouldn't.

trade for anything. Yeah, I love that. I love that. It's hard to think I'm with you on that remix question. I am a I'm a person I don't believe in. Like, regret is the like, it's already happened. So you may as well make the best out of it, like even life worse scenarios. So I like you, I struggle with that. But I'm always thinking about, okay, I am a improvement type of person. So what could I think about? What are you most excited about when you look forward to this year and beyond as you become your you know,

Media mogul. I think most excited about the possibilities that I don't yet know even exist. I think that's honestly what excites me about entrepreneurship in general. For a lot of people, I know that not knowing the path is the scary part. For me, it's always been the fun part. I think I would honestly be a little bit bored if I knew exactly what was coming. So I think for me, it's this excitement of because I am so green to being a media operator and

you know, building a business model of this nature. There's still so many things that I'm learning literally every single day where I'm like, ⁓ I didn't even know that was like a way you monetize as a media company or like, ⁓ I didn't know that this event exists or this type of whatever. It's like always something new. And I think when I look ahead, that's what I'm most excited about, because I also remember that being true for me, you know, years ago when I was a social media manager, I never could have pictured doing this because that

possibility, I wasn't yet aware that something like that existed, but I could have only become aware of it by getting getting my hands dirty and actually like taking action and doing the thing because you could sit there and plan all day, but your planning is always going to be based on your current worldview, not your more experienced worldview. So the only way to actually I think like open your mind to new possibilities is just to get in the game, even if you're not sure what all the rules are yet.

Yeah, okay. I love this. I love this. And I have to ask you this last question because Ellen, you are an exceptional communicator. don't know. I would hope that you know that about yourself, but you are very good with your words, the way that you communicate, how open you are in sharing ideas and making things relevant to other people. You just like big kudos to you. You're an exceptional communicator. Have you always been strong with your verbal communication skills or is that had been something that you have worked on over the years? First of all,

Thank you, huge, huge compliment coming from you, Heather, because this is literally your expertise. ⁓ Honestly, I think it's something I have always been good at. actually have ⁓ old home video tapes. They're so embarrassing, Heather. Someday maybe you'll see one. But there's literally videos of That will be happening. Right. We'll dig it up from the archives. There's old home tapes of me from when I was as young as five. ⁓

My mom would set up a camcorder in the corner of our living room and there's hours of footage where I'm just reading out loud and doing all these character voices. And I'm like, no one's in the room. It's just me. Like I'm just reading. But I think that that practice of like literally speaking out loud, even if no one's listening at such a young age, it's that compound effect, right? Over so many years, I think has allowed me to really hone this craft.

⁓ And I hope that's actually encouragement to some of you is, you know, it's easy to get discouraged. I think when you're starting in any new space, but especially if you're trying to gain visibility through speaking, can feel like, ⁓ like I'm really bad at this or no one's listening, but that's kind of actually your opportunity. Like just think of yourself as five-year-old me. Like no one was listening to me reading out loud, but it's the daily doing and like the words and the sounds actually coming out of your mouth that I think allow you to become better at that craft.

Yeah, okay. So well said. It's so well said. where can people like, where's the best place to go for people who want to hear more of your voice and more of your daily rambles? Where's the best place? Well, the best place to hang out with me if you value consistency is the podcast, because that's the only place that I will reliably show up for you every single week. But cubicle to CEO. So wherever you're listening to this podcast, just search cubicle to CEO and subscribe. We have new episodes every Monday and Wednesday.

And also if you want to chat with me one-on-one, Instagram is where I'm most active. So you can shoot me a DM at Ms. Ellen Yin or at cubicle to CEO on Instagram.

Heather (48:13)
All right, well, there you have it, my interview with Ellen Yin. I hope that this conversation landed at just the right time today. You finished another episode of the Ramble refinery. I'm curious, how you like on the new show so far? I mean, it's like the same show, right? But the new show, it's like, I'm back. I'm very much enjoying recording these episodes and reconnect you with you. I've missed you so much. I would love to hear from you. Shoot me a message on Instagram or...

If you're on my email list, just hit reply to any of my emails. I wanna hear what you're up to. What are you excited about this year? How you liking the show? What do you want to hear coming up on the show? Tell me all the things. I'll be waiting for your response and I'll see you on next week's episode. Ooh, a little spoiler for next week's episode. The person that I'm interviewing for next week, I specifically chose them because of a conversation I saw on threads. And I was just...

so blown away by this move this business owner made that I'm when I created the series, I was like, yes, we have to have that conversation. So there's a little teaser for next week. We'll see you then.